Janneke
If you run "guix pull" today, you get a package graph of more than 22,000 nodes rooted in a 357-byte program---something that had never been achieved, to our knowledge, since the birth of Unix: a Full-Source Bootstrap. #GnuMes 74 comments
Janneke
@dthompson This is currently only i686-linux and x86_64-linux. Work has been ongoing for ARMv7 (and AArch64) for quite some time now, but is stalled, probably until we have RISC-V. 
J. Ryan Stinnett
@dthompson @janneke Which blog post is this? I’d like to read more about this work. 🙂 
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
@janneke not to underpaint the importance and coolness of this achievement, here's an uninformed question that you probably get a lot: how does this work wrt to depending on a Linux kernel (which is tons of C), some basic userland (or can it run as PID 1-and-only?), and x86 hardware (which... who knows what it does) to run this 357 byte binary? If you can't trust a compiler to build your program correctly, why can you trust a kernel and some hardware to run your binary correctly?
Andrius Štikonas
@bugaevc @janneke https://github.com/fosslinux/live-bootstrap project has some initial code to bootstrap Linux. It can build Linux but we still need to kexec into it (which shouldn't be too hard). 
theruran 🌐🏴
@janneke @bugaevc The folks in #bootstrappable @liberachat are working towards resolving those questions. A POSIX kernel capable of building Linux, and a bootstrap from UEFI are some projects off the top of my head. They want to get to a FPGA softcore bootstrap, then a manually constructed CPU in TTL to bootstrap from. But yeah, there are many parts to work on that would improve our (collective) situation, such as bootstrapping GHC: @nomeata https://mastodon.online/@nomeata/110263917613134533
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
@theruran @janneke I was thinking something along these lines: find an "open source hardware" board where you can somehow verify the hardware aren't playing games on you (in particular not running all of your code in a nearly undetectable hypervisor, like we know Intel does...), probably some RISC-V board
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
run you bootstrapping code on it with no OS whatsoever; hopefully it doesn't need much from the OS you'd have to build in a serial driver or something like that (blinking LEDs is cool but you can't input program source this way), not that I have any idea about hardware
theruran 🌐🏴
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
@theruran @janneke the Hurd surely can run GCC and cross-compile Linux; but I'm not sure you would be winning much, for two reasons: 1. It's nowhere near as trivial to do "syscalls" as on Linux — on Linux you place some values into some registers and perform "int 0x80" or "syscall", and that's it, you've called write or exit. On the Hurd, these all are implemented in glibc on top of Mach IPC, and that needs quite a lot of code to happen.
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
@theruran @janneke Here's a project of mine where I simply print "Hello world" without relying on glibc: https://github.com/bugaevc/hello-hurd — but that too is written in C, imagine writing it all in hex. 2. Linux is huge, but you can build it in a minimal configuration (see https://tiny.wiki.kernel.org/). Mach may be a microkernel, but it's minimal in functionality, not size. In fact it's a meme in the microkernel community just how large for a microkernel Mach is. But I don't have any numbers to quantify this. 
Ludovic Courtès
@bugaevc Speaking of the role of the kernel, an interesting question is how to implement isolated builds on the #Hurd—see “Isolated build environments” at https://guix.gnu.org/en/blog/2020/childhurds-and-substitutes/ for an overview. I’m curious what you think of this!
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
@civodul hi! I'm probably not Guix-savvy enough to fully comprehend the issue here — but as I understand it, you want to be super explicit about what each package needs to be built. Do you include libc, cc, binutils into this list of dependencies? (I imagine you do, otherwise it wouldn't be reproducible.) Apparently you do include /bin/sh.
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
So yeah, the Hurd servers aren't much different or any more "external" to the environment than /bin/sh. I don't think you should be firmlinking stuff from the host; you should probably just spawn a mini subhurd for each build. You want pipes and fork/exec, so you need pflocal, proc, and exec servers.
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
(Also /servers/proc, mentioned in your mail, is not a thing, of course 🙂 — the proc server is one of the two servers, the other one being auth, that are not accessible through the file system, but only through _hurd_ports.)
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
Your mail about /bin/sh also raises an interesting topic of paths. Do you want to change /dev/null and /servers/exec to some other (hash-derived I would imagine) paths? Sounds wild but you totally could! You could then either patch glibc (and everyone who expects to find /dev/null at its usual place), or provide symlinks. But then again I don't know enough about Guix to judge here.
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
Unfortunately all this wouldn't help you too much with bootstrapping from source, since you cannot do I/O easily on the Hurd like you can on Linux with a few instructions; you need to do RPCs and all that (even to get your argv). This is of course hidden from you when you're using glibc.
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
> Also, one could argue that things like /dev/null have a well-defined interface that’s set in stone and that, consequently, how they’re implemented does not matter at all. Yes, but also no: there certainly can be differences in behavior that are allowed by the interface (where it explicitly doesn't guarantee something), but (due to bugs) can influence the outcome. For instance, does every write to /dev/null always write the whole buffer, or can there be short writes?
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE replied to gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
Or: can a signal interrupt a write to /dev/null? (On SerenityOS the answer used to be no, on the Hurd it's a resounding yes, dunno about Linux.)
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE replied to gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
See https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/issues/797 for how this can break things
Ludovic Courtès
@bugaevc Exactly! So the question becomes: assuming you have nothing but the Mach syscalls at your disposal, what chain of programs building on each other would eventually let you run a proc and an exec server so you have the beginning of a POSIX build environment? The whole stage0/M2/Mes story on Linux was quite a puzzle; its Hurd version would push it further. :-)
Ludovic Courtès
@bugaevc The Hurd code lives in /gnu/store/…-hurd-*, but the translation points in the build environment would remain /dev/* and /servers/*. Changing that would be impractical and bring nothing.
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
Here's a fun little problem: if you have lost your proc and auth ports, but still have your fs root dir port, how can you recover those two?
Ludovic Courtès
@bugaevc Possibly (but not necessarily) by looking up /servers/proc for the first one; as for auth, it’s forever lost?
Ludovic Courtès
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE replied to Ludovic
Yes, /servers/proc is not it :) I was thinking of the following scheme, which I have not tried, so this is just a theory. You create an executable (perhaps as an unnamed file) that is setuid to yourself, and then exec it (not over your own task, unless you want that), without passing an auth or proc ports (as you have none).
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE replied to gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
The translator notices this and creates a new auth handle based on its idea of your effective uids/gids (see libfshelp/exec-reauth.c); and then the exec server gives the new task a fresh proc port. You cannot access the new task because of setuid/EXEC_SECURE, but as you created the executable you still control what it does.
gtk4-bugaevc.EXE replied to gtk4-bugaevc.EXE
In particular it may send its proc/auth ports back to the original task, and the original proc port may then be recovered by a simple proc_task2proc (other_proc, mach_task_self (), &my_proc) The exact auth port I don't think can be recovered, but at least you now have another auth port with your effective uids/gids.
Ludovic Courtès
@bugaevc The build environment includes nothing bug the explicitly-declared userland dependencies. If a package depends on GCC and Binutils, it gets them; if not, it doesn’t. There’s no /bin/sh there—no /bin, no /usr, nothing. On Linux, there’s /dev and /proc, but for separate namespaces.
Jonathan Frederickson
@civodul @bugaevc @janneke This now got me thinking... I found a Hurd post talking about how it adds POSIX compatibility to Mach: https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/community/weblogs/ArneBab/technical-advantages-of-the-hurd.html And it says it still provides access to the capability-based permissions underneath, which sounds nice. But it also got me thinking: there's likely to be a lot more software targeting WASI soon, which is natively capability-based. Could it be possible for Hurd to have WASI compatibility too?
Ludovic Courtès
@jfred I have to admit I don’t know WASI… But overall, I’m not enthused by the idea of adding an extra interpretation layer like Wasm on top of my CPU. Capsicum or the Hurd’s native interfaces look more appealing to me though.
Janneke
@csepp @joeyh Here's the list of syscalls that GNU Mes uses: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mes.git/tree/include/linux/x86/syscall.h
Andrius Štikonas
@janneke @csepp @joeyh There is a list of required syscalls here: https://github.com/ironmeld/builder-hex0
see shy jo
@csepp @janneke open, read, write, fork, execve, brk -- the usual suspects.. See https://github.com/oriansj/bootstrap-seeds/blob/b1263ff14a17835f4d12539226208c426ced4fba/POSIX/AMD64/kaem-minimal.hex0
Giovanni Mascellani
@joeyh @janneke I had begun working on that part a few years ago: https://gitlab.com/giomasce/asmc. Then life happened and I ran out of steam for that, but hopefully I was not too far from compiling and running Linux at computer boot time, from a handful of KB of binary code.
Ludovic Courtès
@janneke It took a while to get it merged, but now we can celebrate! 🎉 Also, great to see that #NLnet is funding the next steps, with @ekaitz_zarraga and others hard at work! 
davidak
@janneke what an impressive and historic achievement! I appreciate the efforts of all those involved. You have my greatest respect! #NixOS is also implementing it: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/227914
Janneke
@civodul @davidak Just found that it was @emilyposting who started this recent @nixos_org effort, yay! 
Arne Babenhauserheide
Congratulations @janneke ! It’s so awesome to see you reach this goal! And I’m very much looking forward to seeing what else you accomplish. 
グレェ「grey」
What next? Pairing something such as this with LiveHD (e.g. https://github.com/masc-ucsc/livehd) to bootstrap the "hardware" from source too? 
Carlos Solís
Today I learned that you managed to make the build of literally everything get based on a single binary file 
d@nny "disc@" mcClanahan
Maltimore
What I don't understand: such a bootstrap must've been done at least once before in history, otherwise we wouldn't have any compiled programs, right? Why wasn't it possible to go the route of the previous bootstrap again? I'd appreciate a link to some further reading on this. 🙏
Janneke
@maltimore @fsf @fsfe For that last remark, just look at the Java or Rust bootstraps (they needed _many_, _many_ steps) or the sheer impossibility to bootstrap the NPM/Node distaster.
🍒🌳 Hartmut Goebel
Gigantic achievement! My respect and congratulations! |
Gregory's Server
@janneke holy shit I didn't know that this much progress had been made in bootstrapping. I thought we were still maybe years away from full source bootstrap. incredible work!