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⚡🔌ℂlaire 𝔻anielle ℂassidy☀️'s posts Post Back to profile
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Ryan Castellucci :nonbinary_flag:

@nick @LaserMistress Firstly, fewer white people by way of having more mixed race couplings until race becomes meaningless seems like it would be a good thing.

Secondly, the complaint is that minorities and women are not even close to proportionally represented. I've been working in tech for a long time. The vast majority of my coworkers have been men.

Last I looked, at the megacorp I work for there was only one other Principal Engineer (out of over 2,000) openly using they/them pronouns exclusively.

It's not entirely employers faults that this is the case at higher levels, when most industries are full of people systemically pushing people out who don't conform via thousands of papercuts.

25 September at 6:12 | Wall-to-wall | Open on infosec.exchange
38 comments
Nick

@ryanc @LaserMistress I don't feel like much of any of this interacts with my critique. The image is a criticism of currently existing companies, not hypothetical companies now or in the future. The sort of representation that would satisfy is actually mathematically impossible given current demographic representation/distribution. It's literally an incoherent criticism in the meme. Full-throated gibberish if they expect every company to have equal representation.

25 September at 6:20 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Nick

@ryanc @LaserMistress I will also point out that greater male representation in the workforce may also be expected, considering that 80% of women older than 35 have kids and only 13-50% of women actually return to work long-term after maternity leave. Where we do see more men than women, it's unclear if it's not just straight up expected given the empirics on the matter. The meme is just bad on so many levels.

25 September at 6:28 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Ryan Castellucci :nonbinary_flag:

@nick @LaserMistress I do believe I used the phrase "not even close", and I was clearly not talking exclusively about gender.

The issue of many women not returning to the workforce after having children is partially the result of systemic oppression.

The unequal representation starts, at least in tech, right out of college.

25 September at 6:47 | Open on infosec.exchange
Nick

@ryanc @LaserMistress I'm granting that it's not even close. But what I'm saying is that there's actually a logical contradiction entailed if the argument is that current companies can have equal demographic representation with current demographic distributions. Like I said, it's an incoherent position, which is why I'm critiquing it.

Also, how does systemic oppression lead to women desiring to stay home and raise their children?

25 September at 6:51 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Nick

@ryanc @LaserMistress Also curious to know if you hold this view about black people too? Seems like it's actually logically inferrable from what you typed there. Like, do you think that a world with a single homogeneous race would be better than a world with both black and asian people in it? I don't think that's a bullet you wanna bite publicly, hahaha.
25 September at 7:00 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Ryan Castellucci :nonbinary_flag:

@nick @LaserMistress I think racial purity is a bad thing in general, and that white people are notoriously more likely to be shits about it.

Homogeny isn't a good thing either, we need more variety not less.

25 September at 7:42 | Open on infosec.exchange
jonoleth

@nick @ryanc @LaserMistress where do you see anyone making the argument that there should be an equal amount of every possible demographic?

25 September at 7:15 | Open on mastodon.social
Nick

@jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress Then what exactly is this saying if not some sort of critique of current practices within current companies? If it's some sort of sociological commentary about demographic representation in general, then why even mention the companies? Just point to the statistics and straightforwardly object. I think it's pretty clear that this is a critique of current practices within current companies and any other interpretation is just a leap (if not insane), to be honest.
25 September at 7:18 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
jonoleth

@nick @ryanc @LaserMistress it's saying that companies that claim they are diverse are primarily white men and those who are not are not in positions of power.

25 September at 7:20 | Open on mastodon.social
Nick

@jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress Wow, it's like you didn't track anything I said at all. My critique captures this as well. Given the empirics, it's not clear that any other distribution is more expected. Full stop. And if total equality in representation is the standard to which all current companies are to be held, then they're literally being asked to do something that is impossible.

25 September at 7:26 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
jonoleth replied to Nick

@nick @ryanc @LaserMistress again, where do you see anyone making the argument that "total equality in representation" is the goal? White men are not the majority demographic anywhere

25 September at 7:32 | Open on mastodon.social
Nick replied to jonoleth

@jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress If not that, then what? I addressed this. It's not clear at all that the demographic representations here are unexpected at all, in both the total group as well as the hierarchy. So what exactly is the critique supposed to be? It's certainly phrased as though it's directed toward current companies' current practices. Any other interpretation is honestly just fucking insane.

the-nutrivore.social/@nick/113

25 September at 7:37 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
jonoleth replied to Nick

@nick @ryanc @LaserMistress it's saying that white men are overrepresented.

I don't quite see where the confusion keeps coming from.

25 September at 7:40 | Open on mastodon.social
Nick replied to jonoleth

@jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress I don't think that's a very plausible interpretation. Whether or not that's true is going to be indexed to the location, and the statement in the meme is generalized. Not specific. The location isn't declared. It's not even clear it maps on to reality if that's what it's trying to say. So far as I can tell, either it's a work of fiction in its generalizability, or it entails a contradiction. This isn't the slam dunk defense you might be thinking it is.

25 September at 7:47 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Nick replied to Nick

@jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress Like, it's not even clear that there is an overrepresentation phenomenon to any degree that is compatible with the meme. At least in the United States. Whites don't seem to be hired with any appreciably greater frequency than any other race, and are even worse off than some others. And the differences in unemployment can't account for the disparity seen in the meme (mind the Y axis scale btw). It seems like a fabrication.

bls.gov/opub/reports/race-and-

@jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress Like, it's not even clear that there is an overrepresentation phenomenon to any degree that is compatible with the meme. At least in the United States. Whites don't seem to be hired with any appreciably greater frequency than any other race, and are even worse off than some others. And the differences in unemployment can't account for the disparity seen in the meme (mind the Y axis scale btw). It seems like a fabrication.
25 September at 7:58 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
jonoleth replied to Nick
Nick replied to jonoleth

@jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress Have I made some sort of error? If so, can you argue to that error? If so, what's the argument for the error?

25 September at 8:14 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
jonoleth replied to Nick

@nick @ryanc @LaserMistress you're trying to turn this into a debate by countering arguments that no one is making, and it's really weird

25 September at 8:24 | Open on mastodon.social
Nick replied to jonoleth

@jonoleth You literally told me what the argument was, and I countered it. Just take the L instead of doing these weak character attacks that just make you look like you're not tracking the conversation.
25 September at 8:28 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Sylvain Drapeau

@nick

Women are not minorities, they outnumber and outlive us (men). Yet, they are mostly absent from upper management.

@ryanc @LaserMistress

25 September at 7:28 | Open on mstdn.ca
Nick
Sylvain Drapeau

@nick

Perhaps not. For even I am no match against white male privilege so fervently defended.

@ryanc @LaserMistress

25 September at 7:40 | Open on mstdn.ca
Nick

@axnxcamr @ryanc @LaserMistress Let's just cut through the rambling. Have I made an error? Yes or no.

25 September at 7:41 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Ryan Castellucci :nonbinary_flag:

@nick @axnxcamr @LaserMistress Yes, and I wish you the best of luck figuring out what it is.

25 September at 7:43 | Open on infosec.exchange
Nick

@ryanc @axnxcamr @LaserMistress So you can't tell me what that error is? Still waiting for you to own up to your position that black and asian people shouldn't exist, btw.

25 September at 7:49 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Sylvain Drapeau

@nick

Your dishonesty is staggering.

As the proverbial pigeon playing chess, you may claim victory here.

I guess we are done.

@ryanc @LaserMistress

25 September at 8:00 | Open on mstdn.ca
Nick replied to Sylvain
Ryan Castellucci :nonbinary_flag: replied to Nick

@nick @axnxcamr @LaserMistress My dude, the comic about sea lions is not intended to be a playbook for internet discussions.

wondermark.com/c/1062/

25 September at 8:03 | Open on infosec.exchange
Nick replied to Ryan Castellucci :nonbinary_flag:

@ryanc @axnxcamr @LaserMistress Are you ready to own up to the fact that your view entails that it "seems like it would be a good thing" if Black and Asian people did not exist? You keep on dodging this because you know that I'm right. If you read what you wrote carefully, it's plainly obvious that this is inferable.

25 September at 8:32 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Ryan Castellucci :nonbinary_flag: replied to Nick
Nick replied to Ryan Castellucci :nonbinary_flag:

@ryanc @axnxcamr @LaserMistress Dodge harder. I'm gonna enjoy the fact that I'm gonna live rent free in your head for some time after this conversation because of how badly you got destroyed, lol.

25 September at 8:40 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Sylvain Drapeau replied to Nick

@nick

Man, you won! Yay!

If I had one, I'd give you a medal for the occasion... a wooden one, so it doesn't rust.

But I don't have one.

Still, yay!

@ryanc @LaserMistress

25 September at 8:07 | Open on mstdn.ca
Nick replied to Sylvain

@axnxcamr @ryanc @LaserMistress It's logically inferrable from what they said that they think it "seems like it would be a good thing" that black and asian people eventually stopped existing. So again, where is the dishonesty? Can you cite a single example, or are you just going to gesture at me vaguely like a weak, pathetic coward? It's OK if you'd rather do the latter. Just own up to it and we're good. I'd have way more respect for you if you took that route over what you're doing.
25 September at 8:13 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
Sylvain Drapeau replied to Nick

@nick

Somehow, I doubt you are capable of "way more respect", so I'll pass on your offer, thank you.

@ryanc @LaserMistress

25 September at 8:22 | Open on mstdn.ca
Nick replied to Sylvain

@axnxcamr So you're choosing the former and opting to be a weak, pathetic coward. Gotcha. Congrats for being a total piece of shit, I guess?

It would be so much more respectable to just show me a glimmer of introspection and say "y'know, I don't really have a strong argument for my views, but I'm content to vaguely gesture at you with the appearance of disagreement when you challenge my views". That would at least show me a level of self-awareness I could respect, man.

25 September at 8:26 | Open on the-nutrivore.social
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@ryanc @nick @LaserMistress

@lunduke Could you chime in with your experience as a hiring manager? I distinctly remember you mentioning that finding any female applicants was close to impossible, let alone qualified ones. You even tore down the barriers that are often cited as being a contributing factor to the lack of women in tech companies.

25 September at 7:49 | Open on linuxrocks.online
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