Gregory's Server|
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@ryanc @LaserMistress I don't feel like much of any of this interacts with my critique. The image is a criticism of currently existing companies, not hypothetical companies now or in the future. The sort of representation that would satisfy is actually mathematically impossible given current demographic representation/distribution. It's literally an incoherent criticism in the meme. Full-throated gibberish if they expect every company to have equal representation. @ryanc @LaserMistress I will also point out that greater male representation in the workforce may also be expected, considering that 80% of women older than 35 have kids and only 13-50% of women actually return to work long-term after maternity leave. Where we do see more men than women, it's unclear if it's not just straight up expected given the empirics on the matter. The meme is just bad on so many levels.  @nick @LaserMistress I do believe I used the phrase "not even close", and I was clearly not talking exclusively about gender. The issue of many women not returning to the workforce after having children is partially the result of systemic oppression. The unequal representation starts, at least in tech, right out of college. @ryanc @LaserMistress I'm granting that it's not even close. But what I'm saying is that there's actually a logical contradiction entailed if the argument is that current companies can have equal demographic representation with current demographic distributions. Like I said, it's an incoherent position, which is why I'm critiquing it. Also, how does systemic oppression lead to women desiring to stay home and raise their children? @ryanc @LaserMistress Also curious to know if you hold this view about black people too? Seems like it's actually logically inferrable from what you typed there. Like, do you think that a world with a single homogeneous race would be better than a world with both black and asian people in it? I don't think that's a bullet you wanna bite publicly, hahaha. @nick @LaserMistress I think racial purity is a bad thing in general, and that white people are notoriously more likely to be shits about it. Homogeny isn't a good thing either, we need more variety not less. @nick @ryanc @LaserMistress where do you see anyone making the argument that there should be an equal amount of every possible demographic? @jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress Then what exactly is this saying if not some sort of critique of current practices within current companies? If it's some sort of sociological commentary about demographic representation in general, then why even mention the companies? Just point to the statistics and straightforwardly object. I think it's pretty clear that this is a critique of current practices within current companies and any other interpretation is just a leap (if not insane), to be honest. @nick @ryanc @LaserMistress it's saying that companies that claim they are diverse are primarily white men and those who are not are not in positions of power. @jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress Wow, it's like you didn't track anything I said at all. My critique captures this as well. Given the empirics, it's not clear that any other distribution is more expected. Full stop. And if total equality in representation is the standard to which all current companies are to be held, then they're literally being asked to do something that is impossible. @nick @ryanc @LaserMistress again, where do you see anyone making the argument that "total equality in representation" is the goal? White men are not the majority demographic anywhere @jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress If not that, then what? I addressed this. It's not clear at all that the demographic representations here are unexpected at all, in both the total group as well as the hierarchy. So what exactly is the critique supposed to be? It's certainly phrased as though it's directed toward current companies' current practices. Any other interpretation is honestly just fucking insane. @nick @ryanc @LaserMistress it's saying that white men are overrepresented. I don't quite see where the confusion keeps coming from. @jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress I don't think that's a very plausible interpretation. Whether or not that's true is going to be indexed to the location, and the statement in the meme is generalized. Not specific. The location isn't declared. It's not even clear it maps on to reality if that's what it's trying to say. So far as I can tell, either it's a work of fiction in its generalizability, or it entails a contradiction. This isn't the slam dunk defense you might be thinking it is. @jonoleth @ryanc @LaserMistress Have I made some sort of error? If so, can you argue to that error? If so, what's the argument for the error? @nick @ryanc @LaserMistress you're trying to turn this into a debate by countering arguments that no one is making, and it's really weird  Women are not minorities, they outnumber and outlive us (men). Yet, they are mostly absent from upper management. Perhaps not. For even I am no match against white male privilege so fervently defended. @axnxcamr @ryanc @LaserMistress Let's just cut through the rambling. Have I made an error? Yes or no. @nick @axnxcamr @LaserMistress Yes, and I wish you the best of luck figuring out what it is. @ryanc @axnxcamr @LaserMistress So you can't tell me what that error is? Still waiting for you to own up to your position that black and asian people shouldn't exist, btw. Your dishonesty is staggering. As the proverbial pigeon playing chess, you may claim victory here. I guess we are done. @nick @axnxcamr @LaserMistress My dude, the comic about sea lions is not intended to be a playbook for internet discussions. @ryanc @axnxcamr @LaserMistress Are you ready to own up to the fact that your view entails that it "seems like it would be a good thing" if Black and Asian people did not exist? You keep on dodging this because you know that I'm right. If you read what you wrote carefully, it's plainly obvious that this is inferable. @ryanc @axnxcamr @LaserMistress Dodge harder. I'm gonna enjoy the fact that I'm gonna live rent free in your head for some time after this conversation because of how badly you got destroyed, lol. Man, you won! Yay! If I had one, I'd give you a medal for the occasion... a wooden one, so it doesn't rust. But I don't have one. Still, yay! @axnxcamr @ryanc @LaserMistress It's logically inferrable from what they said that they think it "seems like it would be a good thing" that black and asian people eventually stopped existing. So again, where is the dishonesty? Can you cite a single example, or are you just going to gesture at me vaguely like a weak, pathetic coward? It's OK if you'd rather do the latter. Just own up to it and we're good. I'd have way more respect for you if you took that route over what you're doing. Somehow, I doubt you are capable of "way more respect", so I'll pass on your offer, thank you. @axnxcamr So you're choosing the former and opting to be a weak, pathetic coward. Gotcha. Congrats for being a total piece of shit, I guess? It would be so much more respectable to just show me a glimmer of introspection and say "y'know, I don't really have a strong argument for my views, but I'm content to vaguely gesture at you with the appearance of disagreement when you challenge my views". That would at least show me a level of self-awareness I could respect, man. @lunduke Could you chime in with your experience as a hiring manager? I distinctly remember you mentioning that finding any female applicants was close to impossible, let alone qualified ones. You even tore down the barriers that are often cited as being a contributing factor to the lack of women in tech companies. @LaserMistress Is that the rockstar emoji being used to represent a queer person?  @ryanc @LaserMistress no companies actually believe that "alternative" looks are diversity (a start-up was proud to have hired me because I'm "a woman with tatoos")   100% This has been my experience in too many organisations. 1. Under-representation the further up the power chart you go. 2. And *over*-representation of minorities in less desirable or dangerous jobs - eg manual front-line.  @LaserMistress Recently had an anonymous internal survey at my company, part of which was on DEI. One of the questions was "Do you see yourself represented at all levels in the business?". I was able to tick the "Yes of course" type box but I'm a middle-aged, cishet white guy. There was no option to point out that this is not a useful metric.  @LaserMistress "We pride ourselves on diversity.... the diversity of our investment portfolios!" |
@LaserMistress And far too often this is (most of) the DE&I Committee. As you can tell, highly qualified to talk about intersectional diversity and make decisions about what every diverse group wants at their company.