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Clive Thompson

Navy SEALs have disproportionately been dying by suicide …

.. with a similar pattern: Each seemed healthy until their early 40s, when — abruptly — a host of severe mental health issues arose

One wife suspected brain damage, and had her husband’s brain quickly frozen

She unlocked it all

It’s a new form of brain damage

You can read about her story in this superb investigation by Dave Phillips in the New York Times;
gift link here: nytimes.com/2024/06/30/us/navy

114 comments | Expand all CWs
Glenn Fleishman

@clive This is what gets me about the Lewiston, Maine, massacre: the shooter was apparently perfectly level headed before such exposure. Then his personality changed dramatically.

Theodore Painsworth

@glennf @clive

Holy shit.

"Despite never seeing combat, Card's role as a grenade instructor would have exposed him to thousands of blasts over eight years."

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_L

Glenn Fleishman

@itty53 @clive Yeah, this came out via an autopsy not long after the murder spree. I feel terribly for everyone but this feels like he was turned into a killer by accident—we all have agency, but this is something beyond beyond.

RodneyPetersonTalentAgency

@glennf @itty53 @clive

This shithole country deliberately turns young people into killers.

Andy Nortrup :cascadia: 🌳

@itty53 @glennf @clive when I was an Army cadet we went to a training program where we were required to throw one live grenade. But there were national guard instructors who stood in the grenade pits all day all summer and helped cadet after cadet throw one grenade. There were thousands of us in a single summer.

The same thing is repeated at basic training, and advanced training day in and out.

Curmudgeon

@quinn @clive

The link worked for me, but NYT gift links have been hit-or-miss for months. About 20% seem to work. Deleting the NYT cookie sometimes helps but mostly doesn't.

Clive Thompson

@quinn

I just checked it again and it looks like the gift link they generate ... maybe try it in a different browser? <tm the thing everyone says on this broken internet>

Alan Miller :verified_paw:

@quinn @clive IIRC clicking on the text link often works but a preview/thumbnail retrieved and displayed in the client doesn't. Perhaps something gets stripped?

Hannu Ikonen

@clive Recurrent concussive
blast injury? Term i just made up but would fit

zl2tod

@hannu_ikonen @clive
AKA Shell Shock
It would be interesting to model and animate the damage as the wave travels through the interfaces between the different densities and elasticities of brain tissue.
Not too dis-similar to RF, seismic and optical wave analysis.
It would probably only take me about ten years these days.
@violetmadder

violetmadder

@zl2tod @hannu_ikonen @clive

Seriously!

Wow, just wow... This REALLY does not bode well, for anyone who's been shooting a whole lot of guns and the people around them.

Kevin Karhan :verified:

@violetmadder @zl2tod @hannu_ikonen @clive less like that - because we humans are surrounded by loud sounds for most of our existance as a species...

I'd rather suspect something like #Sonar exposure instead cuz that shit can turn peoples brains into tomato soup...
infosec.space/@kkarhan/1127066

violetmadder

@kkarhan @zl2tod @hannu_ikonen @clive

The only common thing I can think of in nature that causes actual explosive shockwaves, is lightning. Thunder is about as loud as a gunshot, but nobody is holding it at arms' length on full auto.

RodneyPetersonTalentAgency

@violetmadder @zl2tod @hannu_ikonen @clive

Ya don’t say?

Seriously I met Stephen Paddock the Vegas shooter it was all about gambling losses - his words, they were cheating, long story.

We talked about gambling and odds and I largely forgot about his anger - until I happened across a comment from someone else with the same basic circumstances - except they talked about guns.

Circumstantially provable.

Nobody at the FBI or Las Vegas law enforcement or MGM Resorts wanted to acknowledge it.

Charlie Stross

@zl2tod @hannu_ikonen @clive @violetmadder@kolektiva.social "Shell shock" was the first world war era term for what today we call PTSD. Medical terminology evolves over time! (Cf. the US Supreme Court saying "abortion didn't happen in the 18th century b/c newspapers didn't mention it". Well no shit, but there were a *lot* of medicines for "regulating the courses" i.e. restarting a stopped menstrual cycle.)

LisPi
@cstross @clive @hannu_ikonen @zl2tod Although it is interesting to wonder how much of an influence this sort of damage had in making things worse on top of that.
datenwolf

@zl2tod @hannu_ikonen @clive @violetmadder
First you'd need the mechanical properties of those tissues. And being closely affiliated with people researching that, let me tell you, that brain matter is quite weird. Highly anisotropic, non-Newtonian. I'm currently working on an OCT elastography systems with which we intend to measure the mechanical properties of various brain tissue in-vivo during brain tumor surgeries.

datenwolf

@andygates @zl2tod @hannu_ikonen @clive @violetmadder

Actually it's more like gelatinous ketchup. Behaves like jelly if undisturbed, but liquefies non-homogeneously under stress.

datenwolf

@zl2tod @hannu_ikonen @clive @violetmadder

Here's the latest publication from our group doing the elastography research: doi.org/10.1364/BOE.510020

feld
@zl2tod @hannu_ikonen @clive @violetmadder I was thinking shellshock too but I don't think that's the same at all. That's more extreme trauma from thinking you're going to die any second now over a long period of time
Eli Wallach's favorite Bass

@hannu_ikonen @clive opera singers are often considered canaries in the coal mine

It takes a lot of resources to keep us together and then in times of scarcity, the singers desperate to sing Will go through anything to do it.

But, throughout the last 150 years there has been a definite measurable decline in the capacity of singers

If you have heard of Ethel merman, an old vaudevillian whose name escapes me, but whose voice dwarfed merman said that voices were declining 'because of the bombs'

KnowAttitude

@clive
hmm. I wonder about the effect on people who shoot guns a lot. Lesser, but how much less, would be a guess and a curiosity.

Kevin Karhan :verified:

@knowattitude @clive I'd assume that this would also apply to SWAT units and others with triggertime...

My assumption is Sonar Exposure...
infosec.space/@kkarhan/1127066

Rhyothemis

@kkarhan @knowattitude @clive

I wonder if there have been any studies to find out if similar damage can bee seen in the brains of sonar -exposed marine mammals or large fish (manta rays)?

huffpost.com/entry/killing-wit

deliverator

@clive

> Much of what is categorized as post-traumatic stress disorder may actually be caused by repeated exposure to blasts

The circle of history... Guess they were more right than we later thought with "shell shock" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_

Kevin Karhan :verified:

@deliverator @clive maybe Sonar exposure?

Would explain the kind of damages and why it's not matching known patterns...

Also one would assume a SEAL to be near such stuff...
infosec.space/@kkarhan/1127066

Marv Clowder

@kkarhan @deliverator @clive

digbysblog.net/2024/06/30/what

Examination during autopsy of SEALs’ brains after suicide have revealed microscopic damage invisible to MRIs and not seen among civilians.

[...]

Marv Clowder

@kkarhan @deliverator @clive

Dr. Perl said privacy rules bar him from discussing specific cases, but members of the families who provided brains to study say the lab found interface astroglial scarring in six of the eight SEALs who died by suicide.

Marv Clowder

@kkarhan @deliverator @clive

The other two SEALs, including Lieutenant Metcalf, had a different type of damage in the same blast-affected areas. Star-shaped helper cells called astrocytes in their brains appeared to have been repeatedly injured and had grown into gargantuan, tangled masses that barely functioned. The lab plans to publish findings on the astrocyte injuries soon.

Marv Clowder

@kkarhan @deliverator @clive

Recent studies suggest that damage is caused when energy waves surging through the brain bounce off tissue boundaries like an echo, and for a few fractions of a millisecond, create a vacuum that causes nearby liquid in the brain to explode into bubbles of vapor. Those tiny explosions are violent enough to blow brain cells apart in a process known as cavitation.

Kevin Karhan :verified:

@MarvClowder @deliverator @clive that's literally brain damages by #Sonar with cavitational bubbles and shit temporarily forming beyond the threshhold that makes one nauseous, incapacitates or kills a person...

This seems rather expectable...

Marv Clowder

@kkarhan @deliverator @clive

The first two lines of the Wikipedia article on cavitation:

Cavitation in fluid mechanics and engineering normally refers to the phenomenon in which the static pressure of a liquid reduces to below the liquid's vapour pressure, leading to the formation of small vapor-filled cavities in the liquid.

When subjected to higher pressure, these cavities, called "bubbles" or "voids", collapse and can generate shock waves that may damage machinery.

Pete

@clive The VA has a motto: Deny until they die.

They do nothing to treat veterans in a way that lives up to their promise or modern medical standards.

Abolition666

@clive i am so bitter and angry. fuck these veteran patriot shit heads. We might worship at their feet today but I know they're all burning in hell when they die. The fact that this article was so well written and researched, this lady standing so dramatically on her staircase, "look, I own a 2 story house!" ... America is disgusting.

Arthur van der Harg

@clive I read about this in Scientific American, a couple of years ago. Blast-induced Traumatic Brain Injury. This one, for instance: scientificamerican.com/article I also seem to remember a more recent one, where they described breaching teams being especially vulnerable, because they often experience blasts in enclosed spaces.

Kevin Karhan :verified:

@ArtHarg @clive Add to that not just the risk of shockwaves in air but also water...

And.water doesn't compress and expand like gases...
infosec.space/@kkarhan/1127066

Kevin Karhan :verified:

@clive potential damage due to #Sonar exposure?

Like they do want to avoid it but that isn't something guaranteed to be and yes, that shit is loud af and even lethal at close range...

David Lees

@clive I thought this was quite well known about, there was a Sean Penn movie about it a few years back, the Gunman.

RodneyPetersonTalentAgency

@clive

So in other words basically the same thing experienced by many football players, NFL and otherwise.

Alan Miller :verified_paw:

@RodneyPetersonTalent @clive both impact related, but the damage is different. Perhaps think of it as the difference between a boxer punching a heavy bag vs a speed bag.

RodneyPetersonTalentAgency

@fencepost @clive

Damn scary. And the leading export of this shithole country at the moment is clueless violent morons.

“I've covered extremism and violent ideologies around the world over my career. Have never come across a political force more nihilistic, dangerous & contemptible than today's Republicans. Nothing close." - Edward Luce, Financial Times, London

“I agree. And I was the CIA Director." - General Michael Hayden

Cykonot

@clive shell shock is not simply ptsd. Having read a number of historic accounts, this is entirely unsurprising.

Edit: i was aware of this after reading about shell shock. It's in the name. Why does everything need to be portrayed as "new." There's a ton of important "old" news (LIKE SHELL SHOCK)

Alan Miller :verified_paw:

@clive hopefully this can lead to some relevant treatment for those already affected.

Enema Cowboy

@clive
I'm hypothesizing that this could be occurring with mortar and artillery crews. Possibly tankers and combat engineers.

Clive Thompson

@Enema_Cowboy

It seems like there’s an awful lot of people potentially exposed in the military, for sure

millennial falcon

@clive heartbreaking. and massive implications for these generations of Ukrainians, who will need proactive, pre-emtpive care from the war they are enduring, not to mention the psychological support and rehabilitation.

all this needs to be funded internationally too. they are doing so much for us all. we must protect our allies from the enemy and the aftereffects.

Full Metal Archaeopteryx

@clive
Thinking about the quarterly weapons training I attended for a few years while in the Navy

But even worse, I think about the six months I slept right under the number 2 arresting wire, where the aircraft would land (always hard) and the tail hook would slam into the steel deck

Plus, working up forward under the catapults...

Sepia Fan

@clive

"Die Männer, die durch Selbstmord gestorben sind, stellen nur einen kleinen Bruchteil der SEALs mit Anzeichen von Hirnverletzungen dar.

SEAL-Veteranen sagten in Interviews, daß viele ehemalige Kollegen jetzt geschieden sind und mit Depressionen, Paranoia und Drogenmissbrauch kämpfen - was durch sich verschlechternde Gehirnfunktionen verursacht werden kann. Verzweifelte Anrufe von selbstmordgefährdeten Freunden sind üblich, sagten sie."

Schrecklich.

cobalt

@clive Knowledge about brain damage is limited at this time. My son has congenital brain damage, but over the years had a semi-normal life and far more abilities than expected. Then over time, many neurosurgeries. Over decades more than a few falls with concussion. Now at almost 45, he has ALSO acquired early-onset Alzheimer's and an unknown mixed dementia. Yet he continues to function with support. Now whatever happens, who knows the cause. Go research!

Julie R

@clive thank you for sharing this.

ShinyBlueThing

@clive It's worth noting that the VA is deeply, *deeply,* resistant to diagnosing anyone with service-connected TBI if they ever had any other risk factors. Ever played a sport in school? not their problem, even with documented service-connected blast exposure or head injury.

I know this because of people I know. One did get medically retired, another didn't, and should have.

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