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Dr. Quadragon ❌'s posts Post Back to profile
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Dr. Quadragon ❌
24 comments
Alexey Skobkin

@drq
Because it's not what generic user is concerned about. It's quite advanced use-case scenario.
Not to mention that it'll require re-implementing thread UI/UX in a lot of projects.

29 May 2024 at 13:24 | Open on lor.sh
mittorn

@skobkin @drq This is strange. I using VK, which has same mechanics in messages: you can forward multiple messages, it is not direct reply and even does not notify sender, but it allows:
Citate other user's message, keeping all attachments groupped in this message, not randomly placed after it, usual citation cannot do this.
Other users may be sure that original message was sent by user, not "fake citate" and see original send time. Even if they have no rights to see original message.
And this is integrated feature, not some user-formatted citate which may differ in syntax or visual representation.
And i very missing this feature in all messengers. Yes, there is message forward in telegram, but it does not allow to make commentary, only forwards original message like repost.
In fediverse that might be very useful because you may mention message auhor anyway. Also it should keep all attachments, text, format, etc.. not respecting local instance limits to be useful. Not sure it may be implemented in mastodon...

@skobkin @drq This is strange. I using VK, which has same mechanics in messages: you can forward multiple messages, it is not direct reply and even does not notify sender, but it allows:
Citate other user's message, keeping all attachments groupped in this message, not randomly placed after it, usual citation cannot do this.
Other users may be sure that original message was sent by user, not "fake...

29 May 2024 at 13:53 | Open on masturbated.one
Alexey Skobkin

@mittorn @drq
Forwarding is another matter. It's more about embedding than replying. I advocate for it for a long time. But it's also not supported in Mastodon 🤷‍♂️ Deliberately in this case.

29 May 2024 at 13:56 | Open on lor.sh
mittorn

@skobkin @drq Yes, but it's more useful. Also you can mention authors in forwards, allowing continue this topic in new thread or subthread.
In same time, making "multi-reply-to" will allow connect two unconnected before threads. This really not useful and hard to implement. I even do not know how we should show such thread in UI/UX.

29 May 2024 at 14:02 | Open on masturbated.one
Dr. Quadragon ❌

@mittorn
> This really not useful

Oh, it is VERY useful.

Have you heard of Obsidian?

@skobkin

29 May 2024 at 14:03 | Open on mastodon.ml
mittorn

@drq @skobkin you want ddos servers? Or make #matrix@matrix.org analog in fedi?

29 May 2024 at 14:04 | Open on masturbated.one
Dr. Quadragon ❌

@mittorn It's still a directed graph. So, time helps. The latest one is where you break the loop off.

@skobkin

29 May 2024 at 14:10 | Open on mastodon.ml
mittorn

@drq @skobkin also, non-tree graphs have loops. How do you want to handle it?

29 May 2024 at 14:07 | Open on masturbated.one
BigFoxBoss

@drq @mittorn @skobkin
Imagine a positive feedback loop when this "obsidian graph" would start sending a bunch of requests trying to fetch the "quote tweet" thread.
I bet it would fall apart :blobfoxowo:

29 May 2024 at 14:09 | Open on masturbated.one
Dr. Quadragon ❌

@BigFoxBoss Easy: don't fetch the post if you already have it.

@mittorn @skobkin

29 May 2024 at 14:12 | Open on mastodon.ml
BigFoxBoss

@drq @mittorn @skobkin
What if some remote server you/someone else "quote-tweeted" from is down and you can't possibly check if you got posts or not?
Also, loops in such graphs exist. Can't go way too deep, otherwise it's just gonna flood everything.

29 May 2024 at 14:13 | Open on masturbated.one
mittorn

@drq @BigFoxBoss @skobkin how to handle answers to post in this case? You already fetched replies and returned to source post again, then drop it. You may miss some answers

29 May 2024 at 14:16 | Open on masturbated.one
mittorn

@drq @BigFoxBoss @skobkin ok, we opening hell thread. Not usuall hellthread with 100500 messages, but with 1000050000. We getting all servers down because they sorting their graphs. Also anyway may turn any thread to helltread by milti-replying to helltread in it...

29 May 2024 at 14:18 | Open on masturbated.one
mittorn

@drq @skobkin really, if you want to answer to multiple posts, you need break graph connection and build new. This helps keep implementation and UX simple, but with same abilities. Maybe we ability to embed "link" not to post, but to thread. Not usually url, but some reference. So starting new thread and posting reference to old thread will make it as separate "subthread" which does not embed to original thread, but opens separately. In this case we will not have loops or stranges in UX.

29 May 2024 at 14:13 | Open on masturbated.one
Dr. Quadragon ❌

@mittorn It becomes too cumbersome then, and breaks semantics.

I got 3 near-identical or adjacent replies, goddamnit.

I need to *reply to* all of them.

Not "post a link to some message". Not "link to thread of subthreads of subthreads".

Reply. Much like I would reply to three humans standing right next to me

@skobkin

29 May 2024 at 14:17 | Open on mastodon.ml
mittorn

@drq @skobkin but other in this thread do not want to see and read same subthread in multiple threads. Also, it makes reading such threads little complicated, when you see same branches many times

29 May 2024 at 14:19 | Open on masturbated.one
BigFoxBoss

@drq @mittorn @skobkin
Doesn't "mention" already do that? Like, you could also link three posts in a reply, mention and/or summarize what you're replying to.

Also, I fell like this discussion has been brought up before, I got a strange feeling of deja'vu :blobfoxglare:

29 May 2024 at 14:21 | Open on masturbated.one
Dr. Quadragon ❌ replied to BigFoxBoss

@BigFoxBoss Mention mentions people. It's all it does.

In-reply-to marks a message as a thing-that-this-message-is-a-reply-to-in-this-particular-conversation. Which is what I want.

@mittorn @skobkin

29 May 2024 at 14:24 | Open on mastodon.ml
BigFoxBoss replied to Dr. Quadragon ❌

@drq @mittorn @skobkin
It's as if we're trying to crossbreed chat mechaniccs with microblogging platform.

Matrix has a thing called "discuss" when message is right clicked. It is as if some people went private with their discussion thread away from the main thread, except it's not public. If it becomes public, then it just becomes yet another thread where everyone is free to join and the whole point of "reply-to-convo" thing collapses again :blobfoxthink:

29 May 2024 at 14:29 | Open on masturbated.one
Dr. Quadragon ❌ replied to BigFoxBoss

@BigFoxBoss Errrmm... no?

What you're describing is making an offshoot thread. Which is what I'm trying to avoid.

@mittorn @skobkin

29 May 2024 at 14:33 | Open on mastodon.ml
BigFoxBoss replied to Dr. Quadragon ❌

@drq @mittorn @skobkin
You complain about already getting offshoot threads, many people asking/saying similar things, wanting to reply to all of them, and you want to solve that in-place right?

Within a thread: mention them in the _reply_ to the original post to (hopefully) redirect them to a different branch for a discussion.
Outside thread: dedicated post, literal offshoot thread, which I'm guessing is not what you want.

As for the technical side of things, not everyone would want a "quote-tweet" thing if it would break compatibility and/or ddos them when hellthread inevitably erupts somewhere. Some if not most servers would flip the switch to disable "quote-tweet".
Something else should be done.

@drq @mittorn @skobkin
You complain about already getting offshoot threads, many people asking/saying similar things, wanting to reply to all of them, and you want to solve that in-place right?

Within a thread: mention them in the _reply_ to the original post to (hopefully) redirect them to a different branch for a discussion.
Outside thread: dedicated post, literal offshoot thread, which I'm guessing is not what you want.

29 May 2024 at 14:45 | Open on masturbated.one
Dr. Quadragon ❌ replied to BigFoxBoss

@BigFoxBoss I don't want "hopefully", I want proper, parsable semantics.

@mittorn @skobkin

29 May 2024 at 14:48 | Open on mastodon.ml
BigFoxBoss replied to Dr. Quadragon ❌

@drq @mittorn @skobkin
It's like trying to make toaster-refrigerator hybrid. Platforms made for entirely different goals.

Old-school forums were literally made to discuss topics, not "blog" about life or something else. "Offtopic" was chastised, so things won't turn into a mess. Yet you could quote one or two users by using "quote" and it linked a user by straight up mentioning them.
If some thread turns into another type of discussoin which is not necessarily offtopic, users either agree to create a separate topic, or they just keep it in, since it is probably meaningful to the thread in general.

Comments on posts in twitter, fedi, heck even news and imageboards while being used like a chat look like a mess anyway and rely on links and visuals to be followed more or less easily.

Chats like discord/matrix, it is easy to see in chat UI/UX when you've been added to a group chat or have specific discussion started.

Here, in fedi, not much exists for merging separate threads into one by different people, because it wasn't made for chatting specifically, and it's only natural for threads to diverge eventually.

@drq @mittorn @skobkin
It's like trying to make toaster-refrigerator hybrid. Platforms made for entirely different goals.

Old-school forums were literally made to discuss topics, not "blog" about life or something else. "Offtopic" was chastised, so things won't turn into a mess. Yet you could quote one or two users by using "quote" and it linked a user by straight up mentioning them.
If some thread turns into another type of discussoin which is not...

29 May 2024 at 14:59 | Open on masturbated.one
mittorn

@drq @skobkin and what if we have in other branch 2 replies to 2 different messages in thread. Ok, we break the loop. First message get answer. But second replies disappears as it already showed in another branch of thread. And... we missed answer here. Answer exist, but it unconnected now. I mean this by missing answers.
And most of users do not want big graphs. They want linear threads. Small linear threads. They like stories. They like tiktok. Both show content in linear way. Regular user will run away if see big graph

@drq @skobkin and what if we have in other branch 2 replies to 2 different messages in thread. Ok, we break the loop. First message get answer. But second replies disappears as it already showed in another branch of thread. And... we missed answer here. Answer exist, but it unconnected now. I mean this by missing answers.
And most of users do not want big graphs. They want linear threads. Small linear threads. They like stories. They like tiktok....

29 May 2024 at 14:23 | Open on masturbated.one
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