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62 comments
Michael Lucas :flan_set_fire:

@cstross

I worked for a firm exactly like this. This is exactly how it happens.

Colman Reilly

@cstross competition makes private businesses much more efficient than state run enterprises.

8r3nt gu14n0w5k1

@cstross Insane or merely vain? That is, the company exists to support the vanity of the "leadership". Most of the world is like this.

Uilebheist

@cstross The whole world (except a few of us) do exactly that.
They could claim that we are the insane ones, because we don't set money on fire just to test our fire extinguishers.

Monica Rooney

@cstross and people want to run government like a business because “efficiency”

JimmyChezPants

@cstross

I have lived a version of this narrative, several times.

AndreaCPowers

@cstross "it's just that this whole department... is some sort of weird political PsyOp to get executives promoted."

I believe this was the real goal of my company where I spent 20 years.

BashStKid

@cstross Hits the mark of at least one good laugh per paragraph.

“My team has spun this as a huge cost saving, when really we just applied a fire extinguisher to the pile of money that we had set alight.”

botvolution

@cstross

hahaha it reminds me of Tom Peters' skunkworks only no-one thanked the skunk

Daniel Andrlik

@cstross A corporate horror story just in time for Halloween!

JacobRPG+ 🫘

@cstross can confirm similar bullshit happening daily for me.

Jim Flanagan

@cstross @middleclasstool

> My team has spun this as a huge cost saving, when really we just applied a fire extinguisher to the pile of money that we had set alight.

At the company I used to work, there were regular awards ceremonies for things like this, and I have to assume that this was the most common backstory.

One of the awards came with a trophy that was actually a working fire extinguisher!

Chris Bohn

@cstross One time when I was new to an organization, I had to fly to XYZ city. I was going to meet up with some other people who were flying in and would have a rental car, so the only transportation I needed to worry about was between the airport and the hotel. The hotel had an airport shuttle.

The audit detected that I didn't reserve a rental car, so the travel request got kicked back to me to budget for a rental car. I sent it back saying that I was using the hotel's gratis transportation. I then received a 5-page form that I had to fill out to prove that this was a cost savings.

I learned the fix to this was to reserve a rental car and then cancel the car after the travel authorization was approved.

@cstross One time when I was new to an organization, I had to fly to XYZ city. I was going to meet up with some other people who were flying in and would have a rental car, so the only transportation I needed to worry about was between the airport and the hotel. The hotel had an airport shuttle.

The audit detected that I didn't reserve a rental car, so the travel request got kicked back to me to budget for a rental car. I sent it back saying that I was using the hotel's gratis transportation. I then...

Uilebheist

@DocBohn @cstross That sounds familiar.
I was once sent to a conference by $multinational and when I got back I dared to walk from the station because I really needed a bit of fresh air after 10 hours on a flight and then the train from the airport.
They demanded I explained why I didn't use a taxi.

(and no, I wasn't going to the office, was going back home, so they didn't even have the excuse to claim that I missed 10 minutes of work because of that).

@DocBohn @cstross That sounds familiar.
I was once sent to a conference by $multinational and when I got back I dared to walk from the station because I really needed a bit of fresh air after 10 hours on a flight and then the train from the airport.
They demanded I explained why I didn't use a taxi.

simonbp

@DocBohn @cstross Getting my (Texas based) org to book an intercity train within the US is nigh impossible, there just isn't a procedure. However, if you book a train anywhere outside the US (even Canada) they won't bat an eye and will approve it.

And I've used the "book and cancel a car" trick a lot, especially when I specifically booked a hotel across the street from where I'm visiting...

Angus McIntyre

@DocBohn @cstross Sometimes what looks like bureaucratic insanity has a reason.

A friend was sent from Edinburgh to London for work. When she returned, the finance person asked about her hotel expenses. She explained she'd stayed with her parents, so it cost nothing. He made her submit a claim anyway.

He explained: “If you can stay for free in London, then management will always send YOU in future. That's not fair to others. So we have to make your trip cost the same as anyone else’s.”

Panama Red

@angusm Thirty-five years ago I had to spend six weeks out of town on a business trip. As it happened, I could stay with my dad, so the company incurred no hotel expenses (comparable expenses today for that city are $375-$400/night, as I found on a shorter trip a few weeks ago). But I DID have a fine Cajun meal, accompanied by three beers, every single night. I ate at the bar, so the bartenders and the owner got to know me very well. @DocBohn @cstross

Jon :laserkiwi:

@angusm @DocBohn @cstross In the early 2000s, I was sent on the first of many trips from London to a business park outside Wash. D.C. and assigned a self catering apartment. I bought breakfast foods and some basic groceries from Wholefoods on my company Amex card. Returning home, I was called to account for the 'personal shopping' I had charged to the card and, when I explained, I was told I was meant to use it to eat out at restaurants, not make healthier food for myself. 1/2

Jon :laserkiwi:

@angusm @DocBohn @cstross The same company threw a fit when, after reading the policies very carefully to make sure I wasn't breaking the rules, I later used the company car allowance (entitled the Travel Allowance) to buy a folding bike and a rail pass for my daily commute. When, again, I was called on to explain my reason (cost/health/environment), the finance person's final plea was "But...but...you're a senior manager...you HAVE to drive a car - what will others think!?" 2/2

Jen

@DocBohn @cstross that's even more ridiculous than the time we had a ban put on travelling First Class.

There was some kind of offer on, and First was cheaper than standard. It also included lunch, wiping that expense off the claim altogether and saving more money. But the Powers That Be noticed that we plebs were having a nice time and banned it, immediately doubling our expense claims.

They also banned overnights, saving £50 on hotels and costing £100+ more on peak time trains.

Jake

@DocBohn
I always explain to new hires that it's not worth their time to try to save the company money. No one will care and they're just wasting their own time. I tell them not to be irresponsible but bill everything down to the bottle of water at the train station. The difference between a $6500 trip and a $7000 trip isn't going to impress anyone. It definitely took a few trips to figure out the path of least pain though.
@cstross

Ian Turton

@Affekt @DocBohn @cstross ah yes I learned that the hard way. Flying home via Edinburgh airport, I grabbed a bottle of water, the assistant helpfully scanned a copy of the Telegraph as they had an offer where you got a free bottle of water. My expense claim was rejected as the company didn't pay for newspapers. The rest of the year I paid full price for the water.

Darren Moffat

@DocBohn @cstross I’ve had to explain to travel audit people that the supposedly cheaper flight the day before actually results in higher expenses because now there will be hotel and more meals.

Rob Abram

@darrenmoffat @DocBohn @cstross Once upon a time I was supposed to travel from Berlin to Munich for a meeting at 9am on Monday. 1st flight in the morning would have got me there too late. HR suggested flying down on Sunday evening & staying in a hotel, which meant leaving at 5pm and cost a fortune. The hassle I had getting them to approve a night train (leaving at 10, arriving at 7) using my own BahnCard in 1st class & saving the org. about €400…

DELETED

@DocBohn

I worked at a company that required transportation costs to/from an airport.

I lived 200m from a free city-run airport bus stop, that ran every 10 minutes most of the time. I learned to just put a cash $15 taxi to and from on every expense report.

@cstross

Gueule d'atmosphère

@DocBohn @cstross
In relation to the car rental story: I was in a bureaucracy for long enough that this fix was actually my first thought. Not sure what if that makes me savvy or just a cog in the machine.

Alexander Goeres

> At 4PM on the last day of the week, I ping a chat full of good engineers and no managers to make sure I'm not about to nuke everything, then just do it.


but this is evil ...
Cyber Yuki

@cstross No good deed goes unpunished.

Here's the lesson: Never expect to be rewarded for saving the company money.

Greedy bastards.

Jeremy Nickurak

@cstross "... but the public sector is wasteful!"

Paul Cantrell

@atrus @cstross
Every time someone says something about “making government efficient like a business,” I ask, “Have you ever encountered an actual business?”

PaJamas

@cstross Yep. I've done things like that before, but on a smaller scale.

"Hey, boss, can I have $150 to buy this widget? It'll prevent $3,000 in damages."
*discussions about if we can afford the $150.*

And then I'm proved right next time the bad thing happens. I do not receive any bonus for this.

Donald Ball

@mooklepticon @cstross Bonus points when the collective salary time of the discussion about whether to spend $150 exceeds $150.

Joeri Sebrechts

@donaldball @mooklepticon @cstross Reminds me of the time I tried to get a previous employer to buy me a €35 backpack instead of the standard issue shoulder bag, and spent 4 paid hours doing so. I know it was 4 hours because we spent a lot of time doing meticulous time tracking. After that they gave me a €300 / month no questions asked equipment budget, because that was easier.

NotHelpfulUntilIAm🥤 🌛 🗄️

@cstross Well, i'd say it's endemic to most current societies. People need to work full time, that's a common belief. And there have been productivity gains making a lot of labor unnecessary.
With those combined, if most companies were not as inefficient, the system would break down due to unemployment. Some might even get the dangerous idea of being entitled to some extra free time without starving!

So in conclusion, this company is both one of the heroes of capitalism and a menace to society. If we could just automate such stuff without actually using up the energy it would consume... virtual inefficiency on efficient circuits!

@cstross Well, i'd say it's endemic to most current societies. People need to work full time, that's a common belief. And there have been productivity gains making a lot of labor unnecessary.
With those combined, if most companies were not as inefficient, the system would break down due to unemployment. Some might even get the dangerous idea of being entitled to some extra free time without starving!

lampsofgold

@cstross @catsalad the line about how op got punished for making the thing work is both so real and also why orgs like this persist. It’s almost like the business people have figured out how to graft enough tech onto fraud that people can’t see the fraud

James Davis Nicoll

@cstross I am having flashbacks to the web guy who got fired by a certain large British game company, after he had set up what was supposed to be a short-term web access solution but before he could get the much less expensive long-term arrangement in place. Cue hilarity as his former bosses got blindsided by a massive bill they could have avoided by treating employees better....

Dan Sugalski

@cstross I see this and the request for a raise they know is going to be rejected and all I can think is "Here, give me the raise I'm asking for OR I WILL PUSH THE BUTTON AGAIN!"

Charlie Stross

@wordshaper Or malicious compliance: put it back the way it was ... by adding that 10 minute delay back. Then do it again! (Whoops, costs double instantly!)

Tony Wells

@cstross

I've been out of that sort of environment for a while, but I and many other people over the years will all have a similar story to tell. Oh, my bonus was an expensed meal for two, but the amount was capped to something like a suburban Italian restaurant meal and no wine.

Gracious Anthracite

@cstross

The only real mistake they made was not keeping that around for when they are having a slow week. "I got a little distracted from this week's sprint going down a performance rabbit hole and I saved us another 10% of our hosting spend", they say, as they switch another handful of machines to the new setting.

Ah, bureaucracy.

dr_barnowl

@cstross In the pre-cloud days, used to pride myself on saving the NHS my annual salary or more by not buying expensive proprietary solutions for which there were perfectly reasonable (usually superior) Open Source alternatives.

Also managed to do the same for the DWP by downsizing the stuff they had running a specific cloud app (from ... high tens of thousands a year to maybe a couple of hundred quid...).

kindly shopkeeper

@cstross I spent 4 years in a useless data science department and was absolutely terrible at it and the only reason I'm pretty sure this isn't about my company is that I don't think we used MondoDB for anything

plinth

@cstross I worked with a library from a company that had incredibly bad performance on the Mac compared to PC and we pushed back on that a lot. Nothing happened. Finally, they sent me over to consult with their Mac engineer and when browsing through the code, I saw #define MAC_SLOW_ALLOC 1 or some such thing. I asked what that did and it did all kinds of sanity checking and debug things and it was turned on in release. I asked why that was and he said, "huh. That shouldn't happen" and set it to 0. Face meet palm. Performance improved dramatically. The management was thrilled and bought a sheet cake to celebrate. I told some of the senior engineers there what happened. They fired him a week later. A month after that, I was seeing fragmentation issues because their actual allocator was not very good, so I rewrote it for them as a gift.

@cstross I worked with a library from a company that had incredibly bad performance on the Mac compared to PC and we pushed back on that a lot. Nothing happened. Finally, they sent me over to consult with their Mac engineer and when browsing through the code, I saw #define MAC_SLOW_ALLOC 1 or some such thing. I asked what that did and it did all kinds of sanity checking and debug things and it was turned on in release. I asked why that was and he said, "huh. That shouldn't happen" and set it to 0....

Tane Piper ⁂

@cstross @baldur I keep reading these posts on this blog in both horror and agreement (and some familiarity)

Lisa the Roo

@cstross " It's cosplaying as a real business and the board thinks the costume is convincing." SMH, so, so true.

Danny Boling ☮️

@cstross

jfc, I can feel this guy's pain soooo personally

EVHaste

@cstross This is so relatable it hurts:

“…it's just that this whole department, like many departments, is some sort of weird political PsyOp to get executives promoted. It's cosplaying as a real business and the board thinks the costume is convincing.”

Unfortunately, this is doubly so:

“I applied myself for five minutes against my own better judgement, had the greatest success of my career, and have immediately been punished for it. Learn from my mistakes, I beg of you.”

Marijke Luttekes

@cstross "The subtext is that if we do this all slowly enough, it might seem like it took a lot of effort instead of just clicking buttons that I said had to be clicked almost a year ago."

I have no words to describe the feeling that this sentence gives me, but it rings horribly true indeed.

DELETED

@cstross

“Data Science” & “Data Scientist” are among the most oxymoronic of oxymorons.

Rob Landley

@cstross David Graeber's "bullshit jobs" does not get enough follow up. The vast majority of capitalism's office workers accomplish the same amount as the vast majority of catholicism's priesthood. They look impressive and chant in unison, to nobody about nothing.

Trenton

@cstross I always say, “I let the facts do the talking. If the facts make you look bad, that’s your problem.” Though this only works if you own your mistakes.

Eric Carroll

@cstross With great computing power comes huge bills.

Bad design using lambdas at cloud scale can bankrupt your corp doing mundane processing, badly.

Been there, seen that. Tried to get the team not to do it. Oh well, so sad, "velocity" and "time to market".

What cloud permits is to see the consequences of terrible design in the bottom line, very very quickly.

It used to be that terrible design slowed you down. We have now traded slowing velocity for hugely increasing cloud bills.

48kRAM

@cstross My old group in my old department in my old job had a saying:

"No good deed goes unpunished"

and I live by those words now

Mark Demeny

@cstross I often hear the [x] sector/industry is so inefficient. (Where x can be government, academia, private sector, tech, whatever...)

What I have discovered after all these years is the actual problem is that these organizations are filled with people. And people are idiots. (I would include myself in this category).

nebulossify

@cstross I'm unconvinced that this isn't just all businesses:

"it's just that this whole department, like many departments, is some sort of weird political PsyOp to get executives promoted. It's cosplaying as a real business and the board thinks the costume is convincing."

Mx Autumn :blobcatpumpkin:

@cstross that’s a good read, and the whole blog has some great content.

Rich Holmes

@cstross "They hired some incredibly talented people to make this happen, and then like five times as many idiots." A distillation of how the world works.

Ian Brown :verified:

@cstross "My team has spun this as a huge cost saving, when really we just applied a fire extinguisher to the pile of money that we had set alight."

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