Gregory's Server@hrefna this is the key point, and the reason I'm always hesitant to describe myself or my job description as an "engineer" - as long as I'm not bound by any ethical or professional standards, it doesn't seem right to claim the title.
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 @tess See, to me it is an ethical _obligation_, not a _binding to professional society_. A lot of engineering takes place outside of professional societies. They are (comparatively) modern, dating just back to the mid-to-late 19th century. But beyond that, I try to maintain a membership with the ACM, so I _am_ bound by those standards. Also I personally have oaths from school to uphold. That there is a lack of _punitive enforcement_ doesn't remove the oath, c.f., Ritual of the Calling.  @sophieschmieg @hrefna huh, I did not know that this was an option, or the implications. This actually seems like the correct way (well, at least *a* correct way) to make a statement about how we should comport ourselves. (I'm reading the code of ethics now, and it's all good stuff.) I really like the ACM code of ethics. I wasn't involved in its process, but I followed along while the current one was being drafted, and a lot of good people worked on it and they did good work getting everything together. @hrefna the problem is that the weird libertarian bent and lack of solidarity in tech means that if you won't do something they're just going to fire you and hire someone who will. Without enforced obligations, harmful and dangerous products will be put on the market. Already are on the market. We either need unions or professional standards. Otherwise we have no real power to say "no". @tess I mean that is true in every other engineering discipline as well. I know engineers—passed the FE, qualified for the EIT at a minimum, and have an ABET-accredited degree with "engineering" in the title engineers—who have worked on the B-52, on the Atlas-V rocket. I know engineers who have worked for companies like Boeing, Northrop-Grumann, and Ball Aerospace. We aren't unique: others deal with the same. But also: I am #union. Partly for this reason exactly. That's a solvable problem. |
@tess @hrefna This. I describe myself as a "programmer" for pretty much exactly this reason.