@mattb @opendna @eff if Hurricane was actually disconnecting...

Ariadne Conill 🐰's posts Post Back to profile

@mattb @opendna @eff if Hurricane was actually disconnecting somebody's power or internet connectivity, I might be more sympathetic.

but in this case, they are just refusing to add two IP prefixes to an allowlist because their customer has allowed their downstream customer to fall in breach of their TOS/AUP.

sorry, but this is an open and shut contract law case.

IncogNET can go to a different carrier (in fact, they were previously multihomed!) if they want to provide bulletproof hosting to hate sites and other criminal enterprises. The fact that they are no longer multihomed is because of their own choices as a provider.

Like 3 Sep 2023 at 14:01 | Open on social.treehouse.systems

14 comments

Ariadne Conill 🐰

@mattb @opendna @eff basically Joshua Moon has managed to con the EFF into showing its ass, again

3 Sep 2023 at 14:02 | Open on social.treehouse.systems

Matthew Booth

@ariadne @opendna @eff I'm taking the EFF at their word here, but IIUC they argue that Hurricane is so large that if they refuse your traffic you are effectively denied internet access. They singled out 'Tier 1' providers in that regard.

Taking them at their word, I do not believe we should allow them to make contract terms of the sort KF would be in breach of. I have no problem kicking them off the internet, it just scares the shit out of me that we might let a corporation make the choice.

3 Sep 2023 at 14:13 | Open on hachyderm.io

Chris "$8 peasant" Jones

@mattb @ariadne @opendna @eff there’s no good faith argument for KF specifically to be given internet service, there’s only abstract free speech arguments which rely on an assumption that any denial of speech invariably and unalterably leads to totalitarianism.
Compelling a company to provide a service which nobody would defend directly, seems somewhat ridiculous to me.

3 Sep 2023 at 14:29 | Open on mastodon.tenshu.net

Matthew Booth

@cmsj @ariadne @opendna @eff It's fine as long as we all agree on who nobody should defend. History has plenty of examples of this not working well.

There are other means of achieving the same goal. I agree that corporations should not be allowed to take this power.

3 Sep 2023 at 14:34 | Open on hachyderm.io

OpenDNA⚙️

@mattb @cmsj @ariadne @eff We are already well down that path: refusing service to LGBT+ is protected, as evidenced by multiple SCOTUS rulings. As is refusing service for partisan membership or political beliefs.

In that context, the argument here is that violently hateful anti-LGBT+ speech is uniquely privileged.

The decision has already been made about who should not be protected: the people KF is dedicated to terrorizing.

3 Sep 2023 at 15:21 | Open on mastodon.sdf.org

Ariadne Conill 🐰

@mattb @opendna @eff the fact that they single out “tier 1” isps in the modern internet just shows how utterly misinformed on how all of this works they actually are.

IXPs disrupted that model in the 2000s, even small regional networks are effectively transit free for most of their traffic flows.

HE’s contract terms for IP transit are the industry standard terms — don’t use the service to spam, commit crimes, conduct terroristic threats, etc.

every transit provider has these terms, they are required by regulatory frameworks that govern the telecom industry.

you are being conned by a badly written and badly researched article.

@mattb @opendna @eff the fact that they single out “tier 1” isps in the modern internet just shows how utterly misinformed on how all of this works they actually are.

IXPs disrupted that model in the 2000s, even small regional networks are effectively transit free for most of their traffic flows.

HE’s contract terms for IP transit are the industry standard terms — don’t use the service to spam, commit crimes, conduct terroristic threats, etc.

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3 Sep 2023 at 14:34 | Open on social.treehouse.systems

Ariadne Conill 🐰

@mattb @opendna @eff by the way, HE is not a tier 1 ISP — they purchase transit from Telia to reach Cogent, for example.

IncogNET (the hosting provider used by KF) was also previously multihomed, but their other transit got terminated for the same reason — they refuse to follow industry standard practices, like enforcing a real AUP.

3 Sep 2023 at 14:37 | Open on social.treehouse.systems

Thomas Guyot-Sionnest

@ariadne Then I think HE should have threatened to do the same, and block IncogNET entirely if it didn't comply.

I think the eff position only about filtering in the middle of the chain, therefore blocking your direct customer is the correct action here. It also ensures the correct parties get involved in the fight. KF (or any other customer that could be involved in this type of filtering as no one here gives damn about KF) has no mutual contact or obligations with HE...

3 Sep 2023 at 15:48 | Open on noc.social

qwertyoruiopz

@ariadne I’m curious: say IncogNET was multihomed, HE dropped the announce for KF and I was a single homed HE customer trying to access KF. Would I still be able to reach KF via HE-bought transit or would there be a situation like with IPv6 where HE cannot reach Cogent at all because they buy no v6 transit?

3 Sep 2023 at 16:54 | Open on nso.group

qwertyoruiopz

@ariadne I ask this because in my view the only bad outcome from this scenario would be HE filtering the full IPv4 internet for their non-IncogNET customers. But if all they are doing is refusing to announce a single homed customer’s range, it’s a complete nothingburger (and even in the former case it’d just make me avoid HE as a single homed upstream (which is an awful idea to begin with, case in point Cogent over IPv6), not really look at it as an attack on the constitution)

3 Sep 2023 at 17:07 | Open on nso.group

Matthew Booth

@ariadne @opendna @eff I'll take your word for it, as this is not a technical space I play in.

3 Sep 2023 at 14:37 | Open on hachyderm.io

Ariadne Conill 🐰

@mattb @opendna @eff perhaps, since internet governance is not a technical space you play in, you should not take sides then :)

3 Sep 2023 at 14:45 | Open on social.treehouse.systems

Matthew Booth

@ariadne @opendna @eff On the contrary, I think everybody should care about governance. It's boring until it's essential.

3 Sep 2023 at 14:47 | Open on hachyderm.io

OpenDNA⚙️

@mattb @ariadne @eff If not corporations, who? The US and Canadian governments? Then there are clear First Amendment issues.

Look, ISPs were blocking the websites of their own workers unions during strikes. Their right to do so is precedent. Facebook (which has monopoly position) is blocking all Canadian news to retaliate against the government.

We're not in danger of sliding down a slippery slope, we're at the bottom watching the worst people demand privileges to stay at the top.

3 Sep 2023 at 15:00 | Open on mastodon.sdf.org