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eevee 🦊

@rail why not target linux and leave the rest up to WSL

i'm not paying money for something that i have to run using a best-effort target-chasing third-party gizmo

24 comments
DELETED

@eevee because realistically native ports often end up just worse and outdated and more bugged than windows version ran via proton

I'm sorry

halva

@rail@bark.lgbt @eevee@queer.party because like 90% of the time they are windows versions with built-in wine and wined3d (not even dxvk)

like off the back of my head i can only remember a few indie games actually targeting linux (eg terraria) and not whatever the fuck AAA studios usually do

Mosheen :verified_enby: :nyanpuppu:

@rail@bark.lgbt @eevee@queer.party unfortunately, this is true, sometimes i have to switch games to the Windows version instead of the native one to get them to work. Valve also agrees with this and started telling devs to target windows and proton

m
@rail @eevee last time i bought a game that had a native linux port, it ran better than the windows version

people on the fan discord i'm on for it (until it stopped due to a recent remaster and other, different bugs appeared) complained about bugs and performance problems i'd never even thought possible from my experience with the game
Riedler

@rail @eevee idk my steam library so far runs fine. duck game runs better via proton than on actual windows, which is funny. most native games need XWayland because statically compiled SDL and stuff, but I don't see that as a major problem.

Riedler

@rail @eevee also, frozen bubble, which is an ancient Linux game (2008 I think), still runs fine on up-to-date arch, so you can't tell me that Linux doesn't support backwards compatibility.

Short Cord 🏳️‍⚧️:therian:🐀:verified_bottom:

@rail @eevee I find far more issues and bugs when running with proton where as a game running native has pretty much zero issues.

Good example I feel is Microsoft Flight sim vs x-plane.
The former is an ass to get working but ""works"" with protontricks however the latter is native in all three platforms and is used professionally by airlines for simulator setups.

A proper game doesn't need to care about how it gets it's keyboard input nor how it renders graphics, you can just abstract that or even better target a multiplatform rendering system (Vulkan, OpenGL).

The issue I believe lies in DRM and the perceived lack of Linux users. Bigger "gaming" companies either don't want to bother or just can't warrant supporting anything but windows for whatever reason (read: fucking money).

That leaves us with proton which should never be used as a crutch for Linux support.

Ffs people, if you build it on any of the fucking big name engines you can just toggle the Linux builds.

Outside of that I guarantee you that the other companies run their servers on linux already, it's not like they don't have the experience to port it to Linux.

@rail @eevee I find far more issues and bugs when running with proton where as a game running native has pretty much zero issues.

Good example I feel is Microsoft Flight sim vs x-plane.
The former is an ass to get working but ""works"" with protontricks however the latter is native in all three platforms and is used professionally by airlines for simulator setups.

✧✦✶✷Catherine✷✶✦✧

@eevee @rail don't do what

my actual literal job involves shipping binaries that have wide linux compatibility--that are simpler than games--and my solution to this ended up being "compile them to wasm and offload the problem to the developers of the wasm engine"

this isn't literally the same as "just tell them to use proton" because that's how it works elsewhere too, but it's kinda close

Rich Felker

@whitequark @eevee @rail Static link them? User-kernel interface is rock solid stable. It's DLL hell that's not.

Rich Felker

@whitequark @eevee @rail Unfortunately OpenGL/GPU usage depends on DLL hell because of bad architecture. I've beent trying to get this fixed for over a decade. But pretty much anything else is fine to static link.

✧✦✶✷Catherine✷✶✦✧

@dalias @eevee @rail what makes these two problems similar is that the core need is "build something for exactly one ABI/platform". I could statically link them which would reduce the amount of different builds to manage to something like... 6 or 7 depending on how i'm feeling (windows x86/x64, macos x64/arm64, linux x64/arm32/arm64); by shipping wasm i build exactly one artifact that runs on most of those

✧✦✶✷Catherine✷✶✦✧

@dalias a significant other reason why i used this is because autotools on windows is hell and yosys uses autotools instead of cmake, and this way i never have to use cygwin or some other cursed shit like that

Pär Björklund

@whitequark @dalias using autotools is basically saying "fuck windows". Sure you can get it to work but it's just not worth it, better to write a simple CMakeLists.txt and go on with your life 😀

Jernej Simončič �

@Paxxi @whitequark @dalias Huh? I've rarely had trouble compiling stuff that uses autotools on Windows, unlike most other build systems.

Pär Björklund replied to Jernej Simončič �

@jernej__s @whitequark @dalias try it without cygwin/msys or any other fake Linux userspace

Ridley @ WATCH LYCORECO

@whitequark @eevee @rail my last job involved this as well, and my solution involved building a custom dynamic libc fork designed for the purpose

it wasn't actually hard to do, but the fact that nobody had done it before was pretty mind-boggling

still isn't in upstream because mailing-list-based development is an absolute joke

doll!

@whitequark @rail [-eevee since she doesn't seem to want to get into this]

the example that sticks out in my mind is this one

eevee 🦊

@hierarchon @whitequark @rail this is a whole constellation of tickets about game developers going out of their way to /violate/ the linux ABI and then multiple distributions going out of their way to keep those games working anyway

Ted Mielczarek

@whitequark @eevee @rail hey now, the Linux kernel syscall ABI is extremely stable. It just doesn't help you much if you're writing anything other than a text-based game.

Genders: ♾️, 🟪⬛🟩; Soni L.

@eevee @rail (because you can't ship/force-install WSL behind the user's back. use qemu or qemu-user or something instead, because those are redistributable.)

nimbius
@eevee @rail fully convinced wsl was made by punished Microsoft at their lowest point. They just released the openssh fork for Linux and were having a rough time with cloud being 99% not them. Now proton won't stop getting better and azure customers are either office/Xbox/windows in house services or big companies basically forced to use it for office or continued windows license discounts.
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