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Tusky

If you have #dyslexia , do alternative fonts in apps help with the reading experience?

If yes, are Atkinson Hyperlegible or OpenDyslexic useful fonts to use with #Tusky? Are there others (that are freely redistributable).

The attached screenshots show what this would look like.

Please boost for reach.

99 comments
Anna ☃️

@Tusky Yes they help!! Both these fonts would be amazing to have in the app :blobfoxheart:

Sally Strange

@Anna @Tusky Yeah same, Atkinson Hyperlegible is better for me, but both options would be so cool

Boba [.ART mod]

@Tusky I really like the way Hyperlegible looks there yeah

$nyx: paw-socks sysadmin

@Tusky i found opendyslexic to be very useful and i think it'd be a good addition to tusky

rugk

@Scarlet @Tusky IMHO such a thing should be the system setting for whole Android

Rí Rua eadar obair ⛄

@Tusky yes, Atkinson Hyperlegible would be amazing.

There's an extended version too github.com/edent/extended-hype

Herzenschein 🐰 :verified:

@Tusky Personally I find OpenDyslexic much more readable than traditional fonts, but I've not been diagnosed with dyslexia yet.

What I've seen so far is that dyslexia fonts can be hit or miss because there are several types of dyslexia in different degrees (it's not limited to those famous reading issues that everyone hears about).

I'd push for having OpenDyslexic available in every app if I could.

From experience I can tell that the Alta variant works better in user interfaces, IIRC it uses less vertical space. But that's something worth testing in the app itself.

I've heard of Atkinson Hyperlegible elsewhere, I didn't really feel any difference but it might be quite approachable since it's much closer to traditional fonts.

@Tusky Personally I find OpenDyslexic much more readable than traditional fonts, but I've not been diagnosed with dyslexia yet.

What I've seen so far is that dyslexia fonts can be hit or miss because there are several types of dyslexia in different degrees (it's not limited to those famous reading issues that everyone hears about).

Anna ☃️

@CaramelTaste it was designed for visually impaired people but it has the same qualities as other fonts designed specifically for dyslexic folks - each letter and symbol has a unique shape making them easier to distinguish :)

Arnim Sommer 🇪🇺

@CaramelTaste
Well, it is designed so that you easily can distinct letters that are similiar in other fonts, especially if you have poor eyesight.
But seems to work for dyslexia, too.
@Tusky

Poslovitch

@Tusky We added #OpenDyslexic to the #WSExport #Wikisource tool, because readers asked us to be able to generate ebooks that made use of that font.

So (as I'm not dyslexic myself), I guess it's useful! 🙂

gudenau

@Tusky Maybe an option to use a downloaded font would be useful?

linguistic chaos goblin

@Tusky I am not dyslexic but I would LOVE it if Atkinson Hyperlegible was a possibility. I'm partially sighted and it's the most readable font for me.

a murmuration of goomy

@Tusky I found that ABeeZee, Andika and Kanit from Google fonts were also good for readability

jonossaseuraava
@Tusky probably should give opendyslexic another shot
Neia 🏳️‍⚧️

@Tusky@mastodon.social I don't think I'm dyslexic, but I use OpenDyslexic in some contexts and it helps.

stevenray

@Tusky @Aakesson in case it would be of interest to you. It’s specifically for the use of the Tusky app for Mastodon.

Y⃒̸̷̝̜̙ͥͥͥngmar

@Tusky Not dyslexic but would love AH. I use it a lot and find it faster to read.

Joseph

@Tusky i mean, include as many free fonts as possible honestly

DELETED

@Tusky I'm not dyslexic but please add them! i like Atkinson Hyperlegible and more options are always good in my opinion.

D3

@Tusky OpenDyslexic, Inconstant Regular and Comic (yes! It's a very readable font) work well

FrauZimorodek

@Tusky Yes, please! Preferably Atkinson, but any of both would be great.

Quixoticgeek

@Tusky I don't use the fonts on my phone. But opendyslexia on my kindle has been a revelation.

    n8   Doesn't follow you 🇺🇦

@Tusky You should probably consider that OpenDyslexic is not supported by the relevant research into how dyslexia works, and is instead based on some unsubstantiated personal ideas of its developer.

That's not just my opinion; there is a lengthy issue about this topic on the Google Fonts repo here: github.com/google/fonts/issues

The original intentions may've been well-meaning, but it's misinformation that I'd strongly object to being re-boosted.

Atkinson, conversely, is well-done & research-based.

@Tusky You should probably consider that OpenDyslexic is not supported by the relevant research into how dyslexia works, and is instead based on some unsubstantiated personal ideas of its developer.

That's not just my opinion; there is a lengthy issue about this topic on the Google Fonts repo here: github.com/google/fonts/issues

Jencel Panic

@n8 @Tusky If people with dyslexia say it helps them that's enough, I think.

    n8   Doesn't follow you 🇺🇦

@abuseofnotation @Tusky no; that's personal anecdote, it's not data.

Everyone already has the freedom to use what they like locally.

Vendors or projects telling the public that a font improves or solves their condition when the research shows that it doesn't is different. That's spreading potentially harmful misinformation.

Jencel Panic

@n8 @Tusky If the percentage of people that say it helps them are statistically significant, then it *is* data.

    n8   Doesn't follow you 🇺🇦

@abuseofnotation @Tusky Read the actual studies linked to in the issue that I posted, then: there is no effect.

I can see from your other post on this thread that you're actually getting involved to promote your own similar work. The same conditions apply. Good intentions may be nice, but making unsupported medical claims is misleading.

Jencel Panic

@n8 @Tusky Not familiar with Open Dyslexiv and trying to have a go, but if we want to follow scientific standards, the claim that "there is no effect" is also misleading - that no effect was observed in a particular study does not mean that there is no effect in general. Rather we can say that the effect is not confirmed.

I, personally, don't make any "medical" claims, I just summarize some of the things that I noticed and formed a hypothesis (that's part of the scientific process).

Anton Tartz

@abuseofnotation @n8 @Tusky

Unfortunately, it has already been found that OpenDyslexic worsens readability on average for people with dyslexia compared to Arial.
in the study attached below it is even nicely listed what the problem is if it has no effect at all. link.springer.com/article/10.1

your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦

@antontartz @abuseofnotation @n8 @Tusky yup. i don't know if it's because i had to learn everything about fonts so i could see not only my CMS pages but what i published on my blogs, but it gives me a headache.

fonts with variability of widths & thickness like NOTO, DROID and ROBOTO is really the way to go.

    n8   Doesn't follow you 🇺🇦

@Tusky
Side note here; I am now blocking
@abuseofnotation@mathstodon.xyz who wants to promote misinformation that is misleading to people with dyslexia. I don't have the time for that.

skze :nonbinary_flag:

@n8 @Tusky a lot of dysexic as well as non-dyslexic people who have other vision and processing difficulties (hi) depend on these types of fonts. if your "research data" takes away a crucial accessibility tool that a whole lot of people rely on, then that's just ableism. medical research disputing and contradicting disabled community knowledge and our lived experience is nothing new. it is ableism. disabled people have expertise over our own experience. you can discount that as "anecdotes", or you can accept the fact that these "anecdotes" are the truth of our lives. use your precious data to add MORE accessibility tools, yes please. but if you use it to take AWAY accessibility tools, you're just being an asshole

@n8 @Tusky a lot of dysexic as well as non-dyslexic people who have other vision and processing difficulties (hi) depend on these types of fonts. if your "research data" takes away a crucial accessibility tool that a whole lot of people rely on, then that's just ableism. medical research disputing and contradicting disabled community knowledge and our lived experience is nothing new. it is ableism. disabled people have expertise over our own experience. you can discount that as "anecdotes", or you...

sour patch dyke 🧡💚❤️💛💙

@skye @n8 wow this guy is a piece of work

making tools available isn't "misinformation" you ridiculous walnut head, and using verbose academicized phrasing and too many semicolons doesn't make you right

DELETED

@x4nw @skye @n8 apart from everything else, what a lot of people miss is that choosing the optimal font for whatever purpose is only important when authoring a document

but it's largely irrelevant when you're writing an app, where you can just include several and let people choose

skze :nonbinary_flag:

@almostconverge @x4nw @n8 exactly!!! and actually only relevant when authoring a PRINT document. everything that's digital can just have custom font settings.

and like i love that people always go "it's not better for people with dyslexia" as if that means "they are imagining their access needs" and not "so dyslexia is clearly not the reason for this effect"

Faith has purple hair! :v_tg: :v_lb:

@skye Wow! What a pile of abelist garbage!

If there's one thing we know about any sort of neurodivergence, of which dyslexia is a form, it's that it's extremely individual. What helps one person may not help another.

Every single one of the articles I could find cited through those links (of which there weren't many) were from the perspective of typographers trying to make print resources more accessible. If you're going to print a book, you need to find one typeface that works well for everyone. You're not going to have 5 different versions in the bookstore for different types of readers. They were looking for a universal solution which doesn't exist. That doesn't mean that local solutions don't exist or that Open Dyslexic isn't one such local solution. There was also some cautioning against going "OMG Fonts!" when other factors such as spacing matter as well.

The main argument against Google fonts was that throwing them at kids to try and fix dyslexia was not a great plan and may do more harm than good. The danger in schools isn't that OpenDyslexic is harmful for the student but that ignorant parents and teachers will treat it as a silver bullet or, worse, use it as a diagnostic too. "Switching their font didn't help, so not dyslexic!" That's bad. IDK that Google disallowing the font is an actual solution to that problem or that Google Fonts maintainers should be in the position of making educational decisions, though.

But also, we're not talking about kids here. We're talking about adults who are capable of making their own decisions. Totally different ballgame.

Even within that context and giving them the most academic benefit of the doubt that I can, the whole thing is dripping with abelism. Lots of probably non-dyslexic white guys sitting around saying "Well, I don't think this will actually help, so no."

So, yeah, total abelist trash.

@Tusky, please keep those options if people are using them. I'm not, personally, but my dyslexia isn't as severe as some and is usually okay with short lines like the kind you get on a phone screen. I know of others, however, who absolutely depend on that font.

@n8

@skye Wow! What a pile of abelist garbage!

If there's one thing we know about any sort of neurodivergence, of which dyslexia is a form, it's that it's extremely individual. What helps one person may not help another.

Every single one of the articles I could find cited through those links (of which there weren't many) were from the perspective of typographers trying to make print resources more accessible. If you're going to print a book, you need to find one typeface that works well for everyone....

legumancer Davy

@faithisleaping needing short lines is a sign of dyslexia?! (Line length makes a huge difference in text being readable for me but I hadn't thought much about why.)

Faith has purple hair! :v_tg: :v_lb:

@legumancer I don't know what it is that makes the difference. Short lines? Short paragraphs? Typeface? All I know is that I typically have less trouble reading on my phone than in print or on my desktop.

your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦

@skye @n8 @Tusky am rabidly dyslexic and a web developer. that font is trash; but that's me. the ability to change size, color, width and density of fonts is what's not only important, but gives people like me a better array of accessibility options. i have the kind of dysgraphia where i see shapes but can't read the words. especially with black backgrounds --whole paragraphs disappear. jeffrey zeldman's web standards book really helped me create my own accessibility styleguide

skze :nonbinary_flag:

@blogdiva @n8 @Tusky yeah, i am aware that it's not a great font for many people, but a crucial tool for others. isn't that the point of accessibility, to provide options for everyone so that we all get what we need? 😌

personally i strongly suspect that "dyslexia" is not the correct framework for these highly irregular fonts. many dyslexics hate them. and many non-dyslexics (like me) absolutely depend on them.

and yea as we all know, the numbers don't show a measurable improvement *for people with dyslexia*. so that is almost definitely not the reason why they are necessary for some, but doesn't change the fact that they are.

i just find it really hurtful when people like that guy dismiss real access needs as "anecdotes". that's not an anecdote, that is my life, and i struggle so much with digital access precisely because of the font issue, it eats so much of my time and energy. i'm glad that it's starting to appear on the general accessibility radar, and i hope we can normalise the ability to *choose*. not between 5 highly regular sans serif fonts witn slightly different shapes, like some apps offer, but real customisation 🥰

@blogdiva @n8 @Tusky yeah, i am aware that it's not a great font for many people, but a crucial tool for others. isn't that the point of accessibility, to provide options for everyone so that we all get what we need? 😌

personally i strongly suspect that "dyslexia" is not the correct framework for these highly irregular fonts. many dyslexics hate them. and many non-dyslexics (like me) absolutely depend on them.

your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦

@skye @n8 @Tusky agreed that customization is the key to accessibility. that other person was technically not wrong; but if Tusky is gonna add it; they should consider including actually useful variable fonts

developer.mozilla.org/en-US/do

which, again, gives the user a greater array of accessibility options the devs won't necessarily have to hard code

am as anti-Google as they come but FONTS it's the only thing they got right in the last 10 years. Noto, Droid & Roboto cover a lot of smartphones

@skye @n8 @Tusky agreed that customization is the key to accessibility. that other person was technically not wrong; but if Tusky is gonna add it; they should consider including actually useful variable fonts

developer.mozilla.org/en-US/do

which, again, gives the user a greater array of accessibility options the devs won't necessarily have to hard code

skze :nonbinary_flag:

@blogdiva @n8 @Tusky yeah it sounds like a useful addition! though for me neither of those 3 includes anything i can read, they are too regular. so they certainly do not cover the full range of accessibility needs.

i had to actually spend money in that samsung store thing to get fonts on my phone and tablet that i can read, since they removed the chocolate cookie font that they used to come with 😞

your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦

@skye @n8 @Tusky am so mad about Samsung i can't even express my disgust and disappointment. i used to be able to root their phones and do all the UI/UX stuff i needed. Trump came and they obvs got paid off to backdoor phones in the US & Canada because it's impossible to do so anymore if you buy your phones here.

but i have a whole list of lo-fi hacks to makes those changes w/o having Samsung fuck with your UI. i gotta get my blog finally up to share that.

skze :nonbinary_flag:

@blogdiva yeah i'm definitely not getting another one of those. the devices i have are gonna last a few more years but when they need replacing i am going to go with something that has free software on it, i am really done with this BS

your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦

@n8 @Tusky THIS!!!

am rabidly dyslexic and a web designer and vehemently, PASSIONATELY hate that g'dman font. it's horrible.

personally, am partial to NOTO, DROID & ROBOTO. they don't tire my eyes.

bare minimum of accessibility for me, includes changing font, font size, colors & spacing.

here's how i've changed the maston.social deck, using the Firefox extension STYLUS.

i need visual variety, if not, won't see whole chunks of text while reading

Aks
@Tusky atkinson hyperlegible is brilliant font
Ian Campbell

@Tusky OpenDyslexic is a great boon to me on Kindle; on Tusky, would help as well. Thanks much for considering this.

Jencel Panic

@Tusky

Time for some self-promotion: right now I am designing a typeface that some people say is easy to read by dyslexic people

github.com/abuseofnotation/abu

From what I gather, it seems that dyslexic people are confused by fonts in which the glyphs are very similar to one another (e.g. ones where b,d,p,q are one and the same character).

Anyway, if you are interested I would gladly provide my font to Tusky and fix any issues with it, that you guys find.

@Tusky

Time for some self-promotion: right now I am designing a typeface that some people say is easy to read by dyslexic people

github.com/abuseofnotation/abu

From what I gather, it seems that dyslexic people are confused by fonts in which the glyphs are very similar to one another (e.g. ones where b,d,p,q are one and the same character).

User

@Tusky You should allow more fonts. To be honest I prefer using comic sans to help with reading, no matter how much of a "meme" it is.

MrClon

@Tusky when i first time seen OpenDyslexic fond (right now) i thought that it's font that emulate effect of dyslexia for some educational reason. But when i try actually read text in this font i immediately realize that it's as readable as my favorite sans font.
Of course partly it's because of size, but still

Eric

@Tusky 👋 Accessibility nerd here!

The important bit is providing options, so things like a variety of typefaces, plus line height and letter spacing to allow someone to self-serve.

Andy Koala

@Tusky I find the jiffy reader chrome extension helpful

SnoopJ

@Tusky I do not have dyslexia, but I use Atkinson Hyperlegible as my default font on desktop because I find it easier to read, and would love to have it in Tusky as well. OpenDyslexic is borderline unreadable for me, but I would be happy to see it added for those who find it helpful.

nate

@Tusky I don't have dyslexia myself, but I asked a friend that does, and they very much prefer OpenDyslexic over Atkinson

Claudius

@Tusky

@SignorMacchina I think OpenDyslexia's objective usefulness was debunked by studies a while ago. But: if people _like_ it, one can still include it, of course.

#dyslexia #tusky

Thomas

@Tusky

Yess!

That is a tremendous step forward for usability!

IMO as good as alt-txt for images!

#dyslexia #tusky

Anton Tartz

nice idea. However, studies have shown that OpenDyslexic [1] and other "dyslexia" fonts [2] do not really have an impact on the reading success of people with dyslexia. In some comparisons, these fonts even perform poorly. [1] (however, it is true that some fonts are better than others, i.e. Arial is better than Times New Romen [3]).

1: link.springer.com/article/10.1

2: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ab

3: dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/2513383

nice idea. However, studies have shown that OpenDyslexic [1] and other "dyslexia" fonts [2] do not really have an impact on the reading success of people with dyslexia. In some comparisons, these fonts even perform poorly. [1] (however, it is true that some fonts are better than others, i.e. Arial is better than Times New Romen [3]).

Corvid Crone

@antontartz oh thank God.

I ~do~ have dyslexia and I have never found that those fonts make a difference. Plus, I hate the childish look of OpenDyslexic. It feels condescending.

It doesn't address the way dyslexia affects me at all. My dyslexic brain views information as "buckets". Each word is a bucket in which letters go. Imagine the letter tiles from a Scrabble game, and grabbing all the letter tiles for the word giraffe. Now put those tiles into a bag. That bag is now the word/concept of giraffe.

All the posts about rearranging all the letters inside a word but leaving the first and last in their correct places? I have no problem with that.

Dyslexia happens in the brain, not on the page. Which is why, when I'm tired, I'll type p instead of d even though they aren't near each other on the keyboard.

Discalcula is a bitch too, but that won't be solved with a font.

@Tusky

@antontartz oh thank God.

I ~do~ have dyslexia and I have never found that those fonts make a difference. Plus, I hate the childish look of OpenDyslexic. It feels condescending.

It doesn't address the way dyslexia affects me at all. My dyslexic brain views information as "buckets". Each word is a bucket in which letters go. Imagine the letter tiles from a Scrabble game, and grabbing all the letter tiles for the word giraffe. Now put those tiles into a bag. That bag is now the word/concept of giraffe.

skze :nonbinary_flag:

@antontartz and yet, there are people like me, some of whom are dyslexic and some of whom have other vision and processing difficulties, who straight up cannot read these very regular fonts 🤷🏻 if you rely on medical research over disabled community knowledge and discount our lived reality as "anecdotes" (as if our quality of life doesn't count if it's not backed up by numbers!) you're doing an ableism.

it may be true that if you take a sample of dyslexic people, the font may not perform very well. but that just means that dyslexia is not the reason why some people do so much better with these fonts, not that we're imagining our access needs.

@antontartz and yet, there are people like me, some of whom are dyslexic and some of whom have other vision and processing difficulties, who straight up cannot read these very regular fonts 🤷🏻 if you rely on medical research over disabled community knowledge and discount our lived reality as "anecdotes" (as if our quality of life doesn't count if it's not backed up by numbers!) you're doing an ableism.

Wolfie 🐺

@Tusky yes I love Atkinson Hyperlegible 🥰

Wolfie 🐺

@Tusky I don't think AH is specifically for dyslexia though, but it does improve readability for people with different vision issues

skze :nonbinary_flag:

@Tusky i have set a special system font for this purpose, and i love tusky for simply respecting the setting, unlike most commercial social media apps 🥳

more options is never a bad idea though!

Skovheks

@Tusky

I don't think I'm dyslexic, but I do have issues keeping place when reading dense texts/long posts, and the dyslexia fonts do help with thet issue

Arnel Šarić Sharan :verified:

@Tusky I am not Dyslexic, but I find OpenDyslexic cool for reading on my Kindle.

Júbilo MX

@Tusky I am. Open Dyslexic is too much for my taste.. ATkinson seems like a good middle ground.

bugbear

@Tusky anyone else who isn't dyslexic find it a bit harder to read OpenDyslexic? I've seen the font for the first time and it kind of surprised me. I don't have the same issue with Atkinson Hyperlegible.

Just wondering if there's something wrong with me.

bugbear

@tamitha So it's not just me... I wonder why...

skze :nonbinary_flag:

@bugbear @Tusky i always have a few days of getting used to it when i switch. but once i am past that, it's easier than other fonts. these days i use other irregular fonts (not dyslexic, funky vision and processing difficulties), i straight up cannot read these very regular sans serif fonts without glasses. and i do like to lie in bed and be online without glasses

Michael Downey 🇺🇳

@Tusky Is there a #GPL compatible licensed version of Atkinson Hyperlegible that would allow it to be distributed with Tusky under its current GPLv2 license? All I know of is their own bespoke/proprietary font license.

Steffen Christensen

@Tusky 1 vote for OpenDyslexic so far. I'll ask around the rest of my family and get more data.
Thank you! 🙏✌️

Steffen Christensen

@Tusky 1 vote for Atkinson Hyperlegible as well...

NatalyaD

@Tusky There's limited evidence to support specific fonts helping in general, but my view is that making them an option can only be a good thing.

I use Atkinson Hyperlegible sometimes and I know people who find the open dyslexic style of fonts helpful.

L'égrégore André ꕭꕬ

@Tusky Would it be possible to add functionality for local fonts? So if you have a font that works especially well for you, you can just store it on your phone and add it in the Tusky settings.

Caro S.

@Tusky Research among dyslectics concluded that the usability of fonts is very individual. What helped most people was a bit more space between the words. Would that also be a possibility in the future?

Wyatt :gentoo: :qtile:

@Tusky
I do have dyslexia, but it's pretty mild. I've seen these fonts before, and they just don't look "good" to me. Just like something is off about it.

Wyatt :gentoo: :qtile:

@Tusky
The hyperlegible font is very clean though. I will have to try it out. Maybe see if I can find something similar for my Linux installations

Squirrel

@Tusky Not having dyslexia, but I'm using Atkinson Hyperlegible for programming instead of the tired old monospace typewriter font. I like that it's one font that works for everyone and every purpose.

Melissa BearTrix 🏳️‍⚧️

@Tusky comic sans is very easy to read ... Somewhere in the back of my mind I think it was designed for that reason

Hugz & xXx

Spin D'Accord

@Tusky

Am I the only one who keeps reading "Atkinson Hypereligible"?

I like Lexend. It's an open font, freely redistributable.

github.com/googlefonts/lexend

Torb 🦋

@Tusky A friend of mine who is dyslexic actually found Comic Sans to be very readable.

Jabuticaba

@Tusky open dyslexic is my go to font. It gives me such a better time reading a lot of things.

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