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Jack William Bell

@elduvelle

I find representing political opinion across a single left/right dimension completely useless for real world opinions and frustratingly simplistic.

In fact I'm on record as calling the 'political compass' 'somewhat valid' because showing human political opinions across two dimensions is superior to a single dimension of left vs right. But, in truth, without yet more dimensions it remains overly reductionist.

> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poli

What we need is a political Battenberg cake.
7 Jun 2023 at 1:36 | Wall-to-wall | Open on rustedneuron.com
21 comments
ashley
Jack William Bell

@rabcyr @elduvelle

Indeed. But keeping it to three keeps me from having to explain tesseracts, much less manifolds.

"Imagine a Battenberg cake in the shape of a cube. Except each face of the cake cube is actually another cake cube. OK, now to trace a path from the top cake cube to the bottom cake cube you…"

7 Jun 2023 at 4:15 | Open on rustedneuron.com
Ingo Schramm

@jackwilliambell @rabcyr @elduvelle We need tensor fields over the supposed continuum of context space. And time. Beware of singularities! The cracks of revolution!

7 Jun 2023 at 5:34 | Open on scicomm.xyz
Jack William Bell

@go_shrumm @rabcyr @elduvelle

No worries about singularities. No matter how many dimensions there are, humans as a species will plot out on each of them in a bell curve.

7 Jun 2023 at 5:36 | Open on rustedneuron.com
Irina

@jackwilliambell @elduvelle What is it called when you're in the middle of the bottom left quarter (as I am)?

7 Jun 2023 at 6:40 | Open on wandering.shop
Jack William Bell

@irina @elduvelle

Of the 'political compass'? Anarchist. Lower right is (supposedly, but doesn't seem to hold up when you look at the real thing) Libertarian.

Edited to add: But that's the thing actually! For example there are different forms of anarchism, ranging from 'no laws, no lords' to Syndicalism. Some want a form of capitalism, but without property rights, and some want communism, but without the Party.

And the same heterodoxy holds true for the all the other positions on the chart.

7 Jun 2023 at 6:44 | Open on rustedneuron.com
Jack William Bell

@irina @elduvelle

And don't get me started on political parties who are exactly the same in every dimension, except degree of racism or militarism.

On that chart the Radical/Conservative dimension should, at the very least, be broken into two dimensions for 'Socialist/Capitalist' and 'Nonconformist/Traditionalist'. The subsequent 3D context space would then allow us to separate political leanings this chart would converge.

That's my Battenberg Cake.

7 Jun 2023 at 7:03 | Open on rustedneuron.com
Jack William Bell

@irina @elduvelle

In other threads of this conversation we've joked about really needing higher-dimensional manifolds to chart human political opinions. But it's one of those jokes that's only funny because (a) it's true and (b) it's basically impossible to realistically implement.

A certain amount of math skill is required to visualize 4 or more dimensions. (I can manage four) And every time you add a dimension there are fewer people who can grok it.

But there are other kinds of charts.

7 Jun 2023 at 7:08 | Open on rustedneuron.com
grouchox

@jackwilliambell @irina @elduvelle nah, that is a proper Social Democrat. Anarchists are more left than down.

7 Jun 2023 at 12:26 | Open on freeradical.zone
Irina

@grouchox @jackwilliambell @elduvelle Social Democrat is what I thought. Anarchist sounds... well, not me. (I think leadership is useful, though it's hard to do well)

7 Jun 2023 at 12:39 | Open on wandering.shop
LN :anarchoheart3:

@jackwilliambell @elduvelle I used to think that but if you see left/right as "fewer systems of dominance" / "more rigid systems of dominance", anarchism is the left endpoint and autocracy the right endpoint. The "auth left" vs "lib left" debate is about the means of getting to the left endpoint. Communism as described by Marx is just shy of that endpoint.

7 Jun 2023 at 6:55 | Open on kolektiva.social
LN :anarchoheart3:

@jackwilliambell @elduvelle The idea that "centrism" is a meaningful position is somewhat silly to be honest. Most people are not "centrist", they just fall somewhere between both endpoints because they think certain hierarchies are good and others are bad.

The most realistic would probably be a stack of left/right gradients for each system of dominance. This is what people hint at when they claim things like "social progressive, fiscal conservative". Not to mention that most people don't have a coherent ideology because they don't think their preferences through.

@jackwilliambell @elduvelle The idea that "centrism" is a meaningful position is somewhat silly to be honest. Most people are not "centrist", they just fall somewhere between both endpoints because they think certain hierarchies are good and others are bad.

The most realistic would probably be a stack of left/right gradients for each system of dominance. This is what people hint at when they claim things like "social progressive, fiscal conservative". Not to mention that most people don't have a...

7 Jun 2023 at 7:00 | Open on kolektiva.social
Jack William Bell

@alan @elduvelle

I would argue most people fall into the middle of the bell curve on most dimensions, but may also be outliers on one or more.

In any case, I didn't invent the 'political compass'. In fact I'm arguing against it, aside from the backhanded complement that it's better than a single dimension.

I'm saying we need to acknowledge there are not just colors of the political rainbow, but also brightness and saturation and more.

7 Jun 2023 at 7:18 | Open on rustedneuron.com
kechpaja

@jackwilliambell @elduvelle Yeah, the square has its flaws too, but it's still better than the one-dimensional left vs right model. I can at least place myself on the square without feeling like I'm leaving something important out, whereas the one-dimensional model is becoming increasingly difficult to respond to.

7 Jun 2023 at 7:16 | Open on social.kechpaja.com
settima

@jackwilliambell Communists are not radical, they're nostalgic-conservative delusional.

7 Jun 2023 at 8:13 | Open on social.horrorhub.club
Outi Leskinen

@jackwilliambell @elduvelle

nice chart!

...but lacks the far down and left corner input.

i'd put anarchist there. tho opinions may vary. political anarchism isn't laisse-faire in any reasonable sense, instead it is consensus processes and deliberation, ie deeply democratic. tho there may not be (yet) a good term for that kind of ideology / political system, anarchism as a word has been tainted and misunderstood or understood in so many ways.

7 Jun 2023 at 10:59 | Open on hypercube.masto.host
Iwillyeah

@jackwilliambell my takeaway from this is that it is impossible to be on the democratic end of y-axis and have any actual idealogy unless you are... Libertarian?

7 Jun 2023 at 12:15 | Open on mastodon.ie
patrick

@jackwilliambell @elduvelle in switzerland political parties and politicians use graphs like this
7 Jun 2023 at 12:56 | Open on mastodon.social
Jack William Bell

@pathengart @elduvelle

I was referring to this style of chart in another thread of this conversation when I said, "There are other kinds of charts."

Also, I like the dimensions chosen. Seems very rational and well-thought-out.

7 Jun 2023 at 14:18 | Open on rustedneuron.com
El Duvelle
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