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Natasha Nox πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦πŸ‡΅πŸ‡Έ

Which one would you use if you want a highly stable desktop device with snapshot capabilities, and why?

Please RT in the #Linux bubble for more reach, I need to make this decision soon and got actually no idea. But having stuff like lsblk, gnome-system-monitor etc. showing it properly would be a bonus. #btrfs #zfs #filesystem #tech #techsupport #sysadmin

Anonymous poll

Poll

btrfs
124
50.6%
zfs
71
29%
ext4 + rsync
65
26.5%
Something else
13
5.3%
245 people voted.
Voting ended 4 May 2023 at 19:56.
41 comments
DELETED

@Natanox
More an emotional choice than a technical here (means: for me). Had to decide few weeks ago. The mentioned fs are well done software.

𝕂, the Something RobotπŸŽ„πŸ΄

@Natanox i don't know why, but btrfs has been a pain every time i tried to use it. ext4 is rock solid, but btrfs might be a better option if you can get it to work

Writing Wolf

@Natanox

I'd go for btrfs because of the data integrity and flexibility at changing usage. Stick to RAID1 (c3/4 optional) or RAID10.

ZFS has integrity but less flexibility and isn't integrated with the kernel.

Ext4 is rock solid, but lacks the data integrity unless used with mdadm and dm-integrity, but could be too slow.

In any of the cases, a good backup is still vital.

(personally, I use btrfs RAID1 for years on #Debian and now #Devuan)

Thomas R. :trollface:

@Natanox actually, I'd use ext4 on lvm, so you've got the snapshot feature.
I've been using this setup for many many years and never had any problems, except hardware defects.

Andreas, DJ3EI, he/him

I have used ext4 on LVM (on luks) successfully for many years, more than a decade by now. Never failed on me, expect for the (rather harmless) occasional case of a snapshot becoming unusable if there was too much movement and I didn't make it large enough to start with.

But then, all I use those snapshots for are consistent backups. So I might not count as a snapshot power user.

I occasionally resize busy (mounted) volumes on the fly, also without problems.

@treuss @Natanox
@idlestate

I have used ext4 on LVM (on luks) successfully for many years, more than a decade by now. Never failed on me, expect for the (rather harmless) occasional case of a snapshot becoming unusable if there was too much movement and I didn't make it large enough to start with.

But then, all I use those snapshots for are consistent backups. So I might not count as a snapshot power user.

Roger BW 😷

@Natanox I've known too many people who thought btrfs was stable until it went foom at them. Maybe now it is stable enough, but people have thought that before. The main disadvantage with zfs is booting off it, which may or may not work depending on distro and setup.

number137

I gave btrfs a number of chances and each time it fooled me (metadata running out of space, odd namespace corruption(??),...)

in principle I really like ZFS (having it also on my NAS), but even with ZFS-on-Linux kernel updates can be sometimes annoying
@RogerBW @Natanox

kaoudis

@Natanox my choice would be zfs because anecdotally I’ve had the least problems with it. If not zfs, ext4.

vkc // Veronica Explains

@Natanox I generally recommend ext4 + rsync for desktops if stability is the key. Btrfs is close, though. Particularly if you're on a distro that's got good documentation on it.

Right now I'm trying btrfs on my regular desktop for the first time, and it's not terrible.

I tend to think ext4+rsync are easier in a disaster recovery scenario, and they're still dirt easy to test. That's a subjective opinion though.

karlggest

@vkc
Btrfs is perfect in that escene. Distros as @opensuse can combined with zypper and Grub2 to make automatic snapshots, so you can boot any snapshot selecting it in the Grub menu.
The bigger problem I have right now using btrfs in home too is that indexers as baloo duplicate the file entries 🀣
@Natanox

karlggest

@vkc
And with SSD and NVME works perfect on the box.
@opensuse @Natanox

Lapineige

@karlggestd
> The bigger problem I have right now using btrfs in home too is that indexers as baloo duplicate the file entries 🀣

Could you please specify what you mean ?
I don't get it.

karlggest

@Lapineige Indexers creates index lists, where each entry it is a file. So you can list, i.ex. all document files in your disk. But indexers as Baloo can't avoid create one entry any time you reboot as the file is modified. If you list all your documents, you'll see each document appears any times.
bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4

Petrichor Squirrel

@Natanox i use option 3 but I am an amateur and I really have no idea if its the *best* option

Marie

@Natanox voted zfs but likely it's zfs with a minimal ext4 root, so that you can skirt the issues with root + zfs.

Donnerbart

@Natanox I'm a lazy guy, so on my desktop machine I'm using Ubuntu with ext4 (and LUKS). I also switched from my own Linux server to off-the-shelf NAS a long time ago. On the different devices I had since then Netgear (ReadyNAS) and Synology (DS920+) were using btrfs. Western Digital (PR4100) used ext4 (I think Synology also offered this as option). No device supported zfs.

rellik moo

@Natanox

needs more LVM with the ext4 option

Unfunny Internet Fella

@Natanox the stone tablet and chisel is much more effective

karlggest

@Natanox Thats my setup (a simple @opensuse #Tumbleweed setup):

lsblk /dev/nvme0n1 -l
NAME MAJ:MIN RM SIZE RO TYPE MOUNTPOINTS
nvme0n1 259:0 0 476,9G 0 disk
nvme0n1p1 259:1 0 512M 0 part /boot/efi

(continue)

karlggest

@Natanox @opensuse
nvme0n1p2 259:2 0 474,4G 0 part /home
/root
/var
/opt
/boot/grub2/x86_64-efi
/srv
/usr/local
/boot/grub2/i386-pc
/.snapshots
/snap
/
nvme0n1p3 259:3 0 2G 0 part [SWAP]

Cuban's Bullspit

@Natanox it depends on the OS, btrfs is great on Fedora and OpenSuse, OpenSuse being the best due to the integrated snapshots on updates. I've been using on Fedora for a couple of years without issue. I like ZFS, works great on BSD but personally found it a bit against the grain on Linux, but its getting there! If you're talking about a file/data drives as opposed to OS, defo go ZFS

Ulf

@Natanox #openSUSE #Tumbleweed use btrfs since years as default. In the beginning it was a little bit tricky with the snapshot size. But since about more than 5 years it is pretty stable as root file-system on my desktop as well on my server.
Benfit:
* Raid 0/1 Support out of the box
* Increasing / Decreasing on a running system
* snapshot with Rallback on boot if a update fails (on the most distros)
* Some nice features which are not present in my head ;-)

Natasha Nox πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦πŸ‡΅πŸ‡Έ

@ulfi Do you know a way to make lsblk and other tools display it properly? πŸ˜‰

Natasha Nox πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦πŸ‡΅πŸ‡Έ

@ulfi Oh, since I already asked something: In case of RAID1 on two disks, can both have the same UUID so in case of catastrophic failure the device still boots despite one of them (which could've been the "root") being dead?

That would be really neat.

Ulf

@Natanox
lsblk works fine on all my installations.
lug-vs.org/lugvswiki/index.php
According the UUID shouldn't be two with the same one. But if you install on one btrfs, you can later add the second as RAID1. How the second will be used in case the main was defect depends on your boot (EFI/MBR and grub) setup

karlggest

@Natanox I don't try that, but it is supposed but you boot the raid, no the device. @ulfi

karlggest

@ulfi @Natanox
* you can add/remove any btrfs device to any btrfs filesystem on a running system

Space Catitude πŸš€

@Natanox
I set up BTRFS across two physical drives for redundant storage for about a year. I hated it. It's unfamiliar and poorly documented.

There's too much detail in error messages and not enough clarity about which ones matter. When something went wrong, I'd have days of very-stressful downtime trying to figure out the problem, correct it, and not accidentally destroy my good data.

I realized that restoring from a daily snapshot would be much easier, and so I switched to rsnapshot.

@Natanox
I set up BTRFS across two physical drives for redundant storage for about a year. I hated it. It's unfamiliar and poorly documented.

There's too much detail in error messages and not enough clarity about which ones matter. When something went wrong, I'd have days of very-stressful downtime trying to figure out the problem, correct it, and not accidentally destroy my good data.

Space Catitude πŸš€

@Natanox
I'm not saying BTRFS fails technically. It seems to work, in fact.

But you need to have a deep, low-level understanding of it in order to use it successfully, and much of your standard Unix/Linux lore doesn't apply (e.g. totally different system from "fsck").

As I am not a filesystem expert, I decided to go back to a more-familiar system, where it was much easier to figure out what was going on if something broke, even if it's probably not as technically sophisticated.

Space Catitude πŸš€

@Natanox

I considered, but did not try ZFS, because there are apparently licensing issues, so it's not so simple to install on Debian.

But I've heard good things about it, technically.

Haven't considered other options. The rsnapshot method seems to meet my requirements.

TSource Engine Query
@Natanox I'm fine with btrfs for a few years already. So I can kinda trust it.
Kevin Karhan :verified:

@Natanox in almost all cases, you'll be better off just backing up stuff regularly with deja-dup / duplicity [included in @ubuntu LTS Desktop per default] or #rsync and use #btrfs since unlike #ext4 and #ZFS, it'll be less straining in terms of write operations [which are the limiting factor of SSDs] and you don't want to use "journal-less ext4" outside of embedded devices!...

#ZFS is great for NASes and Server but there is a reason why not even #Canonical defaults to using it on #Desktop.

Joshua Doll πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

@Natanox lvm snapshots+something, or xfs snapshots when that lands

Norm Mikoto πŸ³οΈβ€βš§οΈ
@Natanox btrfs has matured a lot recently and at least one distro (openSUSE) already configures it with snapshotting out of the box
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