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Chris Trottier

As @mistercharlie writes, Meta's potential ActivityPub-compatible social network may be a threat to the Fediverse.

Many people are suggesting an automatic server block on Meta-run instance(s).

I disagree.

I know I'm in the minority here, but hear me out. First, we need to understand what we're dealing with. What exactly is Meta building? We don't know.

We also need to understand who would use that service and why.

Migration tools? Important too!

lifewire.com/how-metas-new-pro

@fediversenews
15 Mar 2023 at 17:47 | Open on mastodon.social
44 comments
FeralRobots

@atomicpoet
Blocking Meta only works if the blocking sites can outweigh Meta, which they will not do in the foreseeable future. (It's not a given it would work even then.)
On the other hand openly interoperating with Meta could undermine the value, strength, & perceived validity of Meta's garden-walls.
@mistercharlie @fediversenews

15 Mar 2023 at 17:52 | Open on mastodon.social
Chris Trottier

@FeralRobots We need to first understand its nature and how it works.

Then we need to make adjustments.

Finally, there needs to be an easy way to migrate accounts from P92—and that should be easier than migrating from Facebook or Instagram. In theory, at least.

If not, well, that's one potential problem with P92 😉

15 Mar 2023 at 17:55 | Open on mastodon.social
John Socks

@atomicpoet @mistercharlie @fediversenews

Preemptively blocking commercial players might be an example of stealing defeat from the jaws of victory.

15 Mar 2023 at 17:58 | Open on socks.masto.host
Chris Trottier
John Socks

@atomicpoet @mistercharlie @fediversenews

First of all I note that I said "stealing defeat."

Winning would be creating an open standards-based computing environment for social media.

Blocking preemptively might prevent that.

15 Mar 2023 at 18:10 | Open on socks.masto.host
Chris Trottier
John Socks

@atomicpoet @mistercharlie @fediversenews

I'm confused, isn't the entire purpose of the ActivityPub group at the W3.org to create an open, standards-based, environment for social media?

It's not to decide who can use it.

15 Mar 2023 at 18:16 | Open on socks.masto.host
Chris Trottier

@John @mistercharlie @fediversenews That’s their goal, and that’s fine.

My goal is to move the entire planet into decentralized social media platforms.

15 Mar 2023 at 18:18 | Open on mastodon.social
Aswath Rao

@atomicpoet
In other exchanges, @uriel @m have argued that such a large instances can over power any instance. So for this reason alone nobody may federate with FB. Any opinion?
@mistercharlie @fediversenews

15 Mar 2023 at 18:08 | Open on mastodon.social
Chris Trottier

@aswath @uriel @m @mistercharlie @fediversenews Facebook isn’t what’s being federated. It’s another social network, still in development, called P92.

15 Mar 2023 at 18:11 | Open on mastodon.social
Third spruce tree on the left

@atomicpoet @aswath @uriel @m @mistercharlie @fediversenews Could a future extension to each 'verse platform implementation be a capability to block or filter content by originating platform? like configure a Mastadon instance to not relay content from P92 specifically; or leave that at the user preference level ("I don't want to see content from P92"). We already do that for specific instances, why not the - I don't want to say protocol - platform level? Or does that open more cans o worms?

15 Mar 2023 at 18:16 | Open on mas.to
Chris Trottier
Third spruce tree on the left

@atomicpoet @aswath @uriel @m @mistercharlie @fediversenews As in its trivially easy to do already or it would be trivial to implement? Like an instance admin could block all PixelFed content?

15 Mar 2023 at 18:23 | Open on mas.to
Aswath Rao

@atomicpoet @uriel @m @mistercharlie @fediversenews Agreed. But their point is that even a fraction of their user base will be a unbearable load.

15 Mar 2023 at 18:27 | Open on mastodon.social
Andy Nortrup :cascadia: 🌳

@atomicpoet @mistercharlie @fediversenews I would personally love if I had a federated stream of my families Facebook posts. I could read the things I care about without being subject to their adds and their algorithms pushing engagement.

But they won't do that because their business model is dependent on shoving the most adds and engagement pumps between the things I want to read.

I don't see Facebook winning a fight where they have to compete on the quality of the experience in their app.

15 Mar 2023 at 18:28 | Open on social.seattle.wa.us
[DATA EXPUNGED]
Bill Lamb
Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed:
Chris Trottier

@Xantulon ActivityPub is the frog. You can’t prevent Meta from hopping on.

You can cut off the scorpion’s tail, though.

15 Mar 2023 at 19:09 | Open on mastodon.social
Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed:

@atomicpoet no reason to make it easy for the meta scorpion to hop on though

15 Mar 2023 at 19:14 | Open on mastodon.social
Chris Trottier

@Xantulon But it is easy. And more to the point, Meta already has the network effect advantage.

Blocking them doesn’t get rid of their network effect advantage.

Now the people using Meta must leave Meta’s services. So how to accomplish that?

The most important thing is to be VISIBLE to people who use Meta, and offer them a migration path.

15 Mar 2023 at 19:18 | Open on mastodon.social
Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed:

@atomicpoet unless switching from Meta properties to fediverse servers becomes a LOT easier, like click this button easy, I don't think fediverse visibility is going to matter to most Meta users. That's how Facebook beat MySpace, you could migrate your MySpace profile to Facebook easily, and once there, you were stuck. This will only be important for people willing to start completely over again unless there's an "import downloaded profile" button (simplified for post character limit)

15 Mar 2023 at 19:25 | Open on mastodon.social
Chris Trottier

@Xantulon Now you catch what I’m saying 🙂

It is critical to build migration tools.

And key to migration is making Meta users aware of what exists outside Meta—and building a compelling case for why they should leave.

But first we must understand what P92 is, how it works, and how it will interact with the rest of the Fediverse.

15 Mar 2023 at 19:33 | Open on mastodon.social
Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed:

@atomicpoet P92 is the scorpion. We know what it is, or should, we may not know whether the threat is the claws or the tail or something else, but IMO it doesn't matter.
I've been trying to onboard people to the fedi for years, I have first hand experience with UX issues, that's not my argument

15 Mar 2023 at 19:40 | Open on mastodon.social
Chris Trottier

@Xantulon Okay, what is P92? All I know is that it’s a text-based Twitter competitor that aims for Mastodon compatibility and ActivityPub integration.

That’s it.

Will it talk to Pixelfed? What about Friendica?

Will it be open source?

Will it add additional features out of the gate?

I don’t know.

15 Mar 2023 at 19:45 | Open on mastodon.social
Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed:

@atomicpoet I understand the curiosity. Possibly if P92 wasn't being developed by a monopolistic entity fighting for its life, it might be interesting to play with, but it's venom in the scorpion tail. If it wasn't in a scorpion...

australiangeographic.com.au/ne

15 Mar 2023 at 19:49 | Open on mastodon.social
Chris Trottier

@Xantulon No, I don't want to play with it. I want to first understand it, then fight it 🙂

15 Mar 2023 at 19:52 | Open on mastodon.social
Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed: replied to Chris

@atomicpoet well, we didn't really understand some plagues, but we figured out if we didn't drink polluted water not as many people got sick, or we got rid of fleas, or we slept under mosquito netting. Eventually we understood why those things help. But waiting to understand why those things work before doing them would have been much more deadly. Once understood, we can be more efficient with mitigations

15 Mar 2023 at 20:00 | Open on mastodon.social
Chris Trottier replied to Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed:

@Xantulon This isn't a plague that suddenly appears out of nowhere. This is something built by humans, and used by humans.

You might think blocking Meta fixes the problem, but I assure you that it doesn't.

People who join will just dismiss us as purists while Meta hijacks the Fediverse. And they won't understand our concerns since our concerns won't be VISIBLE to them.

So, how to persuade people to leave Meta?

15 Mar 2023 at 20:04 | Open on mastodon.social
Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed: replied to Chris

@atomicpoet I think you miss my point. The fedi is open, it's not going to quarentine, well bits of it might, but we have mitigations. Blocking is one of them.

The people I know on Facebook, for example, won't leave until there isn't a Facebook. It's part of how their world works. That's a small sample size, but of the people left on Facebook, it seems pretty prevalent. Even when their friends and family are on other platforms, they don't follow. Meta must stop functioning for these people

15 Mar 2023 at 20:17 | Open on mastodon.social
Chris Trottier replied to Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed:

@Xantulon Again, it's not Facebook that's joining that Fediverse.

15 Mar 2023 at 20:20 | Open on mastodon.social
Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed: replied to Chris

@atomicpoet no, but from my experience the people on Facebook are the most entrenched compared to other Meta brands

15 Mar 2023 at 20:21 | Open on mastodon.social
Xantulon :mastodon: :pixelfed: replied to Chris

@atomicpoet Please note, I'm not saying we shouldn't make it easy, appeal to their sense of humanity, etc. It's just that if they aren't there yet, there will have to be something compelling, really compelling, for them to even consider moving

15 Mar 2023 at 20:19 | Open on mastodon.social
Adam Dalliance

@atomicpoet

We should not block until we understand!

We wait and see what they build first. And *then* we block, once they have inevitably built a data-hoover with no escape hatches.

Until they build it we reserve judgement, even though we know exactly what they are going to build really.

15 Mar 2023 at 19:47 | Open on boing.world
Chris Trottier

@pre Yes 👍

But also we should build an escape hatch from Meta.

15 Mar 2023 at 19:49 | Open on mastodon.social
Lea de Groot 🇦🇺

@atomicpoet @pre what would an escape hatch look like?

15 Mar 2023 at 19:58 | Open on bne.social
Chris Trottier

@leadegroot @pre I mean, this is why we need to learn more about this project. But whatever the case, we need to build something that's visible to Meta users and makes it easy peasy too switch off of Meta.

15 Mar 2023 at 20:00 | Open on mastodon.social
Brennan Stehling

@atomicpoet Could be good. Could be bad. I’m inclines to believe it’s better to connect more communities. There certainly be a sustained effort from Meta to exploit these communities but people will have the choice to dump Meta without dumping their social graph.

16 Mar 2023 at 3:13 | Open on sfba.social
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