@Gargron My thoughts exactly. They see the future and they know it's not walled gardens.

More to the point, just because they're Meta doesn't mean they'll be successful.

Kodak was an early adopter of digital cameras, but they went bankrupt.

Why? Because they just couldn't leave film photography behind.

@Gargron preach father Eugen! 🙌🫶

@Gargron I wouldn't be so sure. It's Meta. it's cancer. Even if they start using AP, they will eventualy turn it into closed proprietary shit to shove ads in their users brain.

Very similar with XMPP and FB Messenger, WhatsApp, Google Chat and what not

@Gargron

Reply to me:

"the first thing I would do if I wanted to profit from decentralized social networks is implement a way for activitypub to be throttled unless clients sign up for API access. Then I would require those clients to give me all of their server and user data. Then I would implement features that people want, invest in UX and acquisition, and start injecting advertisements disguised as posts and activity into people’s streams. The “activity” that is pub’d WILL include ads."

@Gargron No. It means E3 all over again... :-/

@Gargron

As I said earlier in another thread:

This could go a number of ways.

It could become, by far, the largest single instance of Mastodon and coexist happily with the others.

More likely, it will do that initially then progressively cripple the interconnectivity to other federated servers in an attempt to force as many people as possible to migrate to the Meta instance.

Either way, it will probably signal the final death knell for the bird site.

@Gargron It is safe to say: You will be in the history books. ✨

@Gargron please be aware of and careful about embrace and extend… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

@Gargron I don't know. Do you want your data to be on Facebook? Or in general on platforms that exist in order to collect personal data? Actually, I don't.

@Gargron Well, it probably means they intend to embrace, extend and extinguish, so... watch out.

@Gargron Man kann sich auch öffnen, um Daten abzugreifen, die man sonst nicht bekommt. Wenn wir bei FB sein wollten, wären wir dort.

@Gargron

Embrace, extend, extinguish. THAT's what I worry about. You're presumably old enough to remember this was (and likely is) MSFT's Modus Operandi?

@Gargron if there is anything positive coming out of the bird site burning down, it's this! Such a great win for ActivityPub and the philosophy behind it!

@Gargron Meta has been hemorrhaging users for a few years now. Like Twitter it has tried to wall people off then suggesting they pay to promote themselves... and like Twitter... they are learning you don't have content creators when you force such things.

IMO, if they don't adapt they will stop existing.

Bots make up a lot of their interactions there now. Much like we see with Twitter.

@Gargron Let's hope they'er not trying to subverse ActivitPub by flooding it with custom "improvements" :S

@Gargron
PLEASE be careful! This is #MarkFuckerberg ! He will NOT be looking out for #ActivityPub nor #Mastodon

@Gargron
Just keep in mind the strategy these corporations employ: Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

@Gargron gotta Embrace before they Extend and Extinguish.

Maybe they'll take an open approach but that's not really what they're known for

@Gargron Just be careful of "Embrace and Extend". Remember what Google did to XMPP.

@Gargron I'm very much looking forward to this big gardens connecting to the network. I think there's a chance.

@Gargron I agree it’s a good thing with only a few minor reservations. On the plus side, all those folks who got on Mastodon but then didn’t find their friends and left will have more of a reason to stick around. Their friends may just show up via Meta.

@Gargron Whatever they do, I wonʼt be jumping on board to their version.
Also itʼs not 2007. Their time has long passed.

@Gargron Have to agree with those who believe it's an attempt to Embrace Extend Extinguish.

I won't be touching it.

@Gargron

is it possible to block an instance at the fediverse level

@Gargron one of the key strengths of the open source movement has been it's ability to interact with and influence large companies, without becoming beholden to them. It's the only movement that breaks from the dominant cultural logic to have achieved this, as opposed to becoming separatist in nature. This is why the open-source movement has not only avoided destruction, but has accomplished and enormous amount.

@Gargron I suppose meta could create their own gigantic (and modified) Mastodon instance and brand it as Facebook. They may even try to contribute to Mastodon’s source code and ultimately try to steer its development in whatever direction they want.

@Gargron @matt I don’t know that it is necessarily validation. The company is desperate for something to succeed.

When careful, patient people pick your protocol then it is validation. This is just Meta grabbing at the newest threat and trying to use it because they can’t buy it

@Gargron Well, yes and no.

Maybe I'm still thinking too much about the embrace-extend-extinguish tactics of Micro$oft in the past, but I really don't expect Fac^H^H^HMeta to have seen the light and all of a sudden give the people something useful that they don't control.

There has to be some plan behind it to monetize it. Which -in itself- isn't wrong, but they're only in it for the money, everything else is secondary.

I don't trust Suckerberg. At all.

@Gargron while I'm with both you & @gruber on rolling out welcome mat for #Zuckstick + #Meta in #Fediverse, serious concerns remain re: establishing “Digital Self Defence” tools, strategies, policies & laws re: persistent #PersonalData harvesting by #BigTech everywhere Zeros & Ones exist. Where's the balance between #OpenWeb & #Privacy? We have TONS of great #digital stuff precisely because there’s NO law or BAD law (especially in #AI).
Asking for citizens, individuals, families & #democracy 🙏

@Gargron Protocol over platform.

@Gargron still need some killer apps for VR. I can think of at least one that is not a conference room for boring legless meetings, but the rest of the tech is not ready yet

@Gargron They're gonna "embrace, extend, extinguish" lol

@Gargron
#FB ActivityPub can just go and get forked and we’ll all hang out over here in #MastoLand, no? But not surprised they are using “hot new tech phrases” to sound like they’re with it and happening. Maybe they can try a cryptocurrency as well… oh damn, they already did! 🤣

@Gargron It's a panic signal in response to your work to liberate the social media for everyone. Hats off!

@Gargron @thegardendude nope, looking for a way to knock it down, beat it back and eventually kill it.

@Gargron “去中心化”、“保护多元”，被你这样有志向、有宽容，而且有能力的人所坚守着，是“胜者通吃”时代的清流。
谢谢。

"Decentralization" and "protection of diversity", which are upheld by ambitious, tolerant, and capable people like you, are the clear stream of the "winner takes all" era.
Thanks.

@Gargron
ride the tide> remains me of when linux was competition for microsoft. who assimilated who

@Gargron 👍

@Gargron
It's a sign they want to start the "Embrace Extend Extinguish" journey ASAP while they still have a chance. Don't trust the people at the centre of the biggest centralised social network when they say they're "decentralising": they've just noticed another market and are trying to take over that one too!

@Gargron The one thing they may not be considering fully is that these things were created as a way to get away from them in the first place. I don't see their dynasty lasting so dynastically.

@Gargron when Facebook added XMPP support in 2010, was that "embracing interoperable social media", or was that bringing over more people from the free world into their walled garden, only to pull the plug 4 years later?

they have a history - we can't let them repeat it

@Gargron
Isn't the EU talking about forcing interoperability? Might just be trying to get ahead of the curve.

Still, good.

@Gargron it will be fine until they use their billions to try to jam promoted content into the fediverse.

@Gargron That would be freakin' AMAZING, because then I'd get to see the posts of my friends/family on FB without also having to stay on FB, and they'd get to see my posts here.

@Gargron hey cool uh can we get quote toots?

@Gargron yes!! that's the dream! I have plenty of family who will stay on facebook until it dies, no matter what I say to them... I would love to still be able to share with them and see their updates via ActivityPub

@Gargron It will also be great to have all their engineers improving the standard.

@Gargron Do not underestimate their ability to destroy anything that threatens them.

@Gargron or they’re going to try to pull a Microsoft and embrace, extend, and extinguish.

@Gargron love that perspective. :blobcatcoffee:

@Gargron be careful what you wish for -- im not going to underestimate the ability of big tech to ruin things in the long run

@Gargron And no instance should ever federate with theirs.

@Gargron "and also when they show up we're going to block them like a cat running full tilt into a glass patio door", yeah?

@Gargron @nyanotech that said we should definitely still fediblock on announcement to avoid any risk of EEE

@Gargron I'm not 100% on board here; I see this as much an opportunistic move to siphon Twitter down, nip Blue Sky AND possibly attempt (however stupidly) to try the user capture they did when they supported then didn't XMPP.

But maybe I'm just paranoid.

@Gargron I agree that this is overall a good thing for ActivityPub and for the widespread adoption of the vision you have championed. Facebook is validating the work you and others in this community have done. As Oscar Wilde said: "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness."

That said, I can assure you that Facebook has zero intention of supporting interoperable anything, ever and will work from within to destroy anything like that from ever happening.

@Gargron From experience I can tell you the Facebook playbook:

1) Tightly embrace and clone the latest new thing

2) Reach out to the people who've been key in building/supporting that new thing with attractive partnerships to gain their support, trust and endorsement

3) Abruptly pull support from those same people when either a) the current new thing is under their control or b) the next new thing arrives

I've seen these movies too many times and the sequels keep getting worse.

Hey long as these buttons are here I'm not gonna complain

@Gargron With respect, why does the ecosystem here need validation from Meta? It stands, and is just fine, without it.

@Gargron @jake

@Gargron,

Historically, the most ardent wall-garden builders (or siloists) evolve into open standards champions, once their monopolies implode—since there’s no other path to survival.

Open Standards always win out, eventually—and this reality is about to reshape the #SocialMedia realm too!

#ActivityPub is doing its thing 😀

@Gargron it won’t be ActivityPub-powered. It might speak ActivityPub — which is very different. Because it will speak it a little bit. With strange incompatibilities and glitches. And weird extensions. Sending you on wild bug chases and distracting you. Exporting only the boring stuff (e.g. to see videos you have to be logged into their app.) While they build features you can’t easily match because they have 100 people on the team.

@Gargron it'll be a gigantic Mastodon server that that harvests personal data and interactions, shows ads to users, and probably tags posts with text ads. They'll have to monetize it somehow, so I expect them to come at us with a variety of innovative bad behavior.

@Gargron Three years ago, Jack Dorsey, co-founder of Twitter, started doing something similar at Twitter.

@Gargron That’s nice but there’s no money to be made unless they change the game and pollute the fediverse

@Gargron if facebook is doing that then facebook is in much deeper trouble than they are letting on. Microsoft only went open source friendly when the world started rejecting their proprietary server architecture. Facebook must be in the same sinking boat.

@Gargron
Why do people call it "Meta" anyway? Call it what it is...

Fakebook...

Or as I call it the dark surveillance capital machine with no accountability or transparency...

@Gargron will there be dancing in the activity pub? Is there a strict dress code?

@Gargron Think of what the big corps did to other decentralized networks. Jabber/XMPP was adaopted, used to be interoperable, then locked back down again. Email? Try running your own infrastructure and not end up in some big corp spam filter blocklist.

I'm not saying it's a bad move per se. I'm just not sure if it's beneficial in the long run.

@Gargron as in, like what Microsoft did with email and many more open protocols (may they rip), and Google and Meta themselves did and do with the (once open) web? History repeats, I’d say. Embrace. Extend. Externinate.

@Gargron Most of the people I see on Mastodon are old. FB users are old. Maybe they're just going where their market is going.
I don't see a huge youth movement here.

@Gargron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

@Gargron

That's great, keep them out of here.

@Gargron My fear is that they just see that platform as another way to gather data like „who communicates with whom“.
There‘s a good reason I avoid everything that‘ connected with Meta.

@Gargron Sorry, but what I see is:
Meta is looking for a way to pour all its hate, lies and propaganda (and ads of course) into our beloved social system - to the effect that lots of people here will pull the plug, which in the end will leave Meta as the still No.1.

@Gargron counterpoint: Google's Hangouts (however it was named then) used to be an interoperable, federated XMPP thing.

Then one day they turned off interop, and suddenly you had a wave of "dude, let's move over to Google's instance so we can keep chatting?"....

@Gargron Remember what the web was like at first: just some academics and people with personal sites. Then venture capitalists saw the potential and now we have the web of Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc. Heck, in some countries, people get Facebook free with their phones. The Internet IS Facebook for them. I’m not saying we can avoid it here but we can delay it by not legitimising them. At least the Trojans had the decency to hide in a horse… least we can do is not lay out a red carpet for them.

@Gargron It's only a way for META to not die like Twitter and others in the past.

A way to get more and more personal informations from everyone in the Fediverse even if we don't want to create an account on their services.

META is evil !

@Gargron zuck zuck activitysuck

If Meta joins the Fediverse, I suspect their primary objective will be to siphon as much data as possible out of it. What keeps them from simply following everybody? Or, say, building a search engine, which many here don't seem to be a fan of? Many instances would probably block them, leaving the connection to the biggest player flaky. How many users will rather stay on Meta's side?

@Gargron It is a validation, but I find it impossible to believe they’re not working on ways to lock people in. This may also be a ruse to stifle competition and then abandon the development altogether. Everything they’ve ever done shows they can’t be trusted.

@Gargron that sounds a bit too much like “If Microsoft is really working on a web browser”

@Gargron I feel the same way, it'll at least give their users more visibility on the world outside the garden. You never know, some might leave because they find it isn't as scary or hard as they thought.

We should really only be concerned when they (the big tech corps) try to push themselves on to the rest of us through trying to hijack the protocol or flooding out ads.

That is something that we should be looking at locking down now rather than later

@Gargron It's clear that more and more users want to free their data from one single service provider and move to services where they can import and export their data. This news from Meta about using ActivityPub/Mastodon is a great sign for future interoperable services.

@Gargron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

@Gargron the problem with welcoming large corporations into open systems and standards is the old "embrace and extend" ethos. They will start to push for changes that don't "fit" with the Way Things Are Done, and people will say no, and they will say "ok" and implement it on their side. Then their users will start to complain that features used by meta users don't work properly elsewhere, and meta will say "well look, why don't you ask your server to implement ..."

@Gargron Yeah, but I still don't trust it

@Gargron can I be honest? Facebook really REALLY needs to die, giving them a lifeline they'll most definitely abuse is a bad idea for everyone but them. They're already failing and we've got something good here, maybe we don't need them at all and should focus on the good we do for people that doesn't net huge profit and defederate them out?

@Gargron probably means users don't have to quit or join other networks' to be able to speak with others who aren't on FB, and they can monetize others' content on their platform, and maybe gain new users joining their platform in the hope of enjoying federation while enjoying "best of the services"

@Gargron This seems incredibly naive. All they see is that ActivityPub can be weaponized against us. They're here to exploit us and destroy the Fediverse because monopoly is what pays.

@Gargron sounds like they're entering the arena- taking bets on how long it takes them to innoculate folks against federated concepts

@Gargron you created Mastodon with the health of the system being prioritized over just yourself controlling it. for that i think you deserve an economics prize for innovation. you seem to be the only one left who has started a company with long-term stability of the system as your goal, and not just short-term "growth" for your own savings account.

for all of this i thank you. have an amazing day/night!

@Gargron I agree with this assessment, but this is also a huge threat to fedi. After all, same things could have been said about XMPP back in the day when Google Talk and Facebook Messenger both used it!

We *have to* learn that lesson and proceed with an abundance of caution. Meta would not be doing this if they didn't think they can somehow "own" and control the resulting ecosystem in some critically important way.

@Gargron no way, man.

@Gargron

EMBRACE!!!!!! <----- You are here
EXTEND!!!!!
EXTINGUISH!!!!