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r2t3 :tor: :wireshark: :artix: :bitcoin: ๐Ÿ“ˆ ๐ŸŒ• :chad2:'s posts Post Back to profile
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m0xEE

@safiuddinkhan @hacknorris @2T2 It could be a Windows 10 Mobile phone, I have one. It has a browser and it's fast, but it's EOL and doesn't have lastest shiny features so a lot of websites just don't work.
Last time I tried even Proton's web interface and Hydrogen (lightweight Matrix web client) stopped working. So I put Windows 11 on it โ€” now it's not a phone, it's a PC ๐Ÿคฃ

16 Jul 2022 at 12:15 | Wall-to-wall | Open on social.librem.one
15 comments
Iska :emacs_thinking:โ€‹ :guix:
m0xEE

@iska @safiuddinkhan @hacknorris @2T2 Oh, now I get the question ๐Ÿ˜‚
Why Windows and not Linux? Because the community port of Windows is great, everything works, including HW video decoding. It can boot linux โ€” but that's it. It has some framebuffer support and the networking might work if stars align properly. A device like this is hardly useful.

16 Jul 2022 at 12:30 | Open on social.librem.one
็ฟ ๆ˜Ÿ็Ÿณ
@m0xee Please don't mention windows and the kernel, Linux in the same sentence - as they are not comparable.
16 Jul 2022 at 12:32 | Open on freesoftwareextremist.com
m0xEE

@Suiseiseki I still think it's acceptable in this rare case. Only the kernel boots on this device, the userspace doesn't matter at this point ๐Ÿ˜†

16 Jul 2022 at 12:34 | Open on social.librem.one
็ฟ ๆ˜Ÿ็Ÿณ
@m0xee >I still think it's acceptable in this rare case >Only the kernel boots on this device, the userspace doesn't matter at this point
It's not acceptable, as that's an incorrect claim.
Linux will *not* boot without a supplied init - if it's missing, it will panic() instead: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/init/main.c#n1549
That (non-Linux supplied) init program matters very much - otherwise you just get a panic() instead of the a usable login screen.
@m0xee >I still think it's acceptable in this rare case >Only the kernel boots on this device, the userspace doesn't matter at this point
It's not acceptable, as that's an incorrect claim.
Linux will *not* boot without a supplied init - if it's missing, it will panic() instead:
16 Jul 2022 at 12:37 | Open on freesoftwareextremist.com
m0xEE

@Suiseiseki I insist that it is acceptable. Sure the kernel won't work by itself, but that is not what my point was. This device is not usable because there is no support for the hardware it has *in the kernel*. No init can change that.

16 Jul 2022 at 12:42 | Open on social.librem.one
็ฟ ๆ˜Ÿ็Ÿณ
@m0xee >This device is not usable because there is no support for the hardware it has *in the kernel*.
You just claimed it booted up into a framebuffer.
If Linux doesn't have drivers for the hardware you're trying it with, it simply won't boot (although generic drivers leave much to be desired).
If you got into a framebuffer login prompt, that is perfectly usable, as you can use emacs (rms prefers framebuffer emacs), nano and a bunch of other GNU tools just fine.
The only reason why I use Xorg, is because Xorg lets me use lots of terminals on multiple monitors, and it can display UTF-8 (for ใงใ™).
@m0xee >This device is not usable because there is no support for the hardware it has *in the kernel*.
You just claimed it booted up into a framebuffer.
If Linux doesn't have drivers for the hardware you're trying it with, it simply won't boot (although generic drivers leave much to be desired).
16 Jul 2022 at 12:50 | Open on freesoftwareextremist.com
m0xEE replied to ็ฟ ๆ˜Ÿ็Ÿณ

@Suiseiseki I didn't mention any login prompt. The fact that framebuffer works doesn't imply login prompt, it doesn't even imply you can access built-in storage and mount the root partition, right?
I get it, you just want to push some agenda, but this doesn't look like a perfect occasion to do it.

16 Jul 2022 at 12:57 | Open on social.librem.one
Iska :emacs_thinking:โ€‹ :guix: replied to m0xEE

@m0xee @Suiseiseki

You need to read the root partition for init to run. Find me one time when framebuffer worked but not login.

16 Jul 2022 at 12:59 | Open on mstdn.starnix.network
m0xEE replied to Iska :emacs_thinking:โ€‹ :guix:

@iska @Suiseiseki There is this thing called initrd. Yeah, if you go into nitpicking mode, you can pretend you didn't understand what I was talking about.
Just do dd if=/dev/random of=the-block-device-you-have-your-real-root-partition-on and see how framebuffer works, but you still get no login prompt ๐Ÿ˜„

16 Jul 2022 at 13:05 | Open on social.librem.one
Iska :emacs_thinking:โ€‹ :guix: replied to m0xEE

@m0xee @Suiseiseki

init (and so is framebuffer mode I think) runs after initrd. I think initrd is also optional unless I'm mixing things.

16 Jul 2022 at 13:17 | Open on mstdn.starnix.network
m0xEE replied to Iska :emacs_thinking:โ€‹ :guix:

@iska @Suiseiseki It sure does! the bootloader reads initrd image and just passes it to the kernel. Kernel doesn't know shit about most file systems at this point. The init itself is in initrd image (so initrd comes first), so are the filesystem modules. Init inserts filesystem modules (and the modules required for the block devices to work) into the kernel then mounts the real root filesystem, now that it has the proper filesystem support and has the block device accessible.

16 Jul 2022 at 13:23 | Open on social.librem.one
m0xEE replied to m0xEE

@iska @Suiseiseki Then a lot of other shit happens, agetty or something similar gets started and you get the login prompt. At last!
Thing is, if real root filesystem is not accessible: block device is not accessible, filesystem is not supported or it is damaged โ€” you won't get the login prompt. But you will still see the errors in *framebuffer* console.

16 Jul 2022 at 13:26 | Open on social.librem.one
Iska :emacs_thinking:โ€‹ :guix: replied to m0xEE

@m0xee @Suiseiseki

I thought you see the panic in grub's console, at least at this stage.

16 Jul 2022 at 13:27 | Open on mstdn.starnix.network
็ฟ ๆ˜Ÿ็Ÿณ replied to Iska :emacs_thinking:โ€‹ :guix:
@iska You won't see anything in grub's console, as grub is no longer running when Linux is launched.
He mentioned that Linux booted, and stuff about networking, which strongly implied that the login prompt worked, but of course he didn't actually say what occurred.
Linux does output logs to framebuffer during early boot and so you can boot up just Linux (with no rootfs) and watch it panic(), but it's a incredible stretch to say the computer can "boot linux" - when booting didn't finish.
@iska You won't see anything in grub's console, as grub is no longer running when Linux is launched.
He mentioned that Linux booted, and stuff about networking, which strongly implied that the login prompt worked, but of course he didn't actually say what occurred.
16 Jul 2022 at 13:35 | Open on freesoftwareextremist.com
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