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Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag's posts Post Back to profile
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Fan of Shared Truth & Empathy

@realtegan This is the kind of parental talk that should be taught schools.

11 November at 16:49 | Wall-to-wall | Open on mastodonapp.uk
41 comments
Noodlemaz

@JohnSullivan @realtegan unfortunately making the move from threat to violence makes the person doing the kicking at fault. Not morally, but otherwise - and it's generally not safe to be the one starting violence with these people.
So, men need to step up and tell men this shit is unacceptable.
The responsibility cannot be laid at women's doors. They don't respect women, they won't listen. Only men have the power to hold those men accountable.

11 November at 17:32 | Open on med-mastodon.com
Rupert

@noodlemaz @JohnSullivan @realtegan I don't see how someone who is claiming control of your body can complain about what it does to him.

11 November at 17:56 | Open on mastodon.nz
Noodlemaz

@rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan because the law is on his side, sadly.
Are you not aware that women experiencing years of threatening stalking are frequently told by police that 'he has to do something' before they will step in?
That a large percentage of police abuse women anyway?
And that many men will use 'she started it' to escalate, not infrequently to hospitalisation or even fatal-level violence?

We want to protect people, not put them in more danger.

@rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan because the law is on his side, sadly.
Are you not aware that women experiencing years of threatening stalking are frequently told by police that 'he has to do something' before they will step in?
That a large percentage of police abuse women anyway?
And that many men will use 'she started it' to escalate, not infrequently to hospitalisation or even fatal-level violence?

11 November at 18:05 | Open on med-mastodon.com
Rupert

@noodlemaz @JohnSullivan @realtegan Yeah, the law protects men like that and not their victims.
Is that a law you're particularly concerned with upholding?

11 November at 18:34 | Open on mastodon.nz
Jay

@rupert @noodlemaz @JohnSullivan @realtegan I think their point is that they’re not willing to sacrifice brave women to the law for an unknown chance doing so would affect it.

A better route is to use social pressures to reduce the expression of these threats, which is why they said it needs to be men talking to other men, as the men that make these threats are more cowed by men’s disapproval than women’s hypothetical violence.

11 November at 18:49 | Open on mastodon.online
Noodlemaz

@WhiteCatTamer @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan yes, that, thank you.
I don't know how, from anything I've said, that you'd think I'm defending the law and/or those men.

I'm saying that, practically, beginning violent conflict with *men who are clearly prone to violence or are at least considering it* is not likely to end well. I am concerned for women's safety (and that of everyone else those shits would target).

Kicking people in the balls is not a good way to keep yourself safe. As a woman.

@WhiteCatTamer @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan yes, that, thank you.
I don't know how, from anything I've said, that you'd think I'm defending the law and/or those men.

I'm saying that, practically, beginning violent conflict with *men who are clearly prone to violence or are at least considering it* is not likely to end well. I am concerned for women's safety (and that of everyone else those shits would target).

11 November at 18:55 | Open on med-mastodon.com
Rupert
Locksmith

@rupert @noodlemaz @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan

I think all of this societal pressure and etc. is good and necessary.

But there, at the moment, in the instant one says "your body, my choice", or any similar type of nonsense, women should not only kick the man in the balls, but rearrange his face, dislocate his mandibula, fracture a few fingers and the respective arms, and break one knee and both of the man's ankles.

THEN the woman may start thinking about societal pressure, and law, etc.

I am a man. I am an idiot, thus. Talk and sense are not the ways through which we men learn. What makes us men learn is having our faces broken. Only then we start listening.

@rupert @noodlemaz @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan

I think all of this societal pressure and etc. is good and necessary.

But there, at the moment, in the instant one says "your body, my choice", or any similar type of nonsense, women should not only kick the man in the balls, but rearrange his face, dislocate his mandibula, fracture a few fingers and the respective arms, and break one knee and both of the man's ankles.

11 November at 19:36 | Open on infosec.exchange
Noodlemaz

@locksmithprime @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan don't tell women what to do. That is the core message. Including how to behave in the face of such an offensive dehumanising, threatening statement.

Again, escalating and making the situation violent is VERY unlikely to work out well.
Violence does not solve problems. Violence - and the prospect of it - is the problem at hand. Taking our choices and freedom is violence. Don't tell us how to react.

You perpetuate sexism, too.

@locksmithprime @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan don't tell women what to do. That is the core message. Including how to behave in the face of such an offensive dehumanising, threatening statement.

Again, escalating and making the situation violent is VERY unlikely to work out well.
Violence does not solve problems. Violence - and the prospect of it - is the problem at hand. Taking our choices and freedom is violence. Don't tell us how to react.

11 November at 19:52 | Open on med-mastodon.com
Noodlemaz replied to Noodlemaz

@locksmithprime @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan because claiming that men only learn from violence?
That comes from patriarchal, toxic masculinity bullshit. Sexist nonsense that says empathy, emotion and pacificism is the realm of women/femininity.

It is not. Stop believing their lessons. Regrow the parts of yourself that patriarchy killed before you tell women to join you in leaving those parts of themselves to die in response to threats. That's not winning.

11 November at 19:54 | Open on med-mastodon.com
Locksmith replied to Noodlemaz

@noodlemaz @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan

I respect all this. But we need to be pragmatic.

I have two daughters who train in Krav Maga. Krav Maga as self-defense is straightforward: defuse if possible. Get out of conflict, always a good decision. If conflict is unavoidable, annihilate. Anyone has the right of not being harmed and using the tools at their disposal for preventing that harm. Women, men, children.

The men who are saying those things, "your body, my choice"? They are idiots. Bullies. When did ever debate and talking work with bullies?

@noodlemaz @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan

I respect all this. But we need to be pragmatic.

I have two daughters who train in Krav Maga. Krav Maga as self-defense is straightforward: defuse if possible. Get out of conflict, always a good decision. If conflict is unavoidable, annihilate. Anyone has the right of not being harmed and using the tools at their disposal for preventing that harm. Women, men, children.

11 November at 19:59 | Open on infosec.exchange
Jay replied to Locksmith

@locksmithprime @noodlemaz @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan We’re not asking for equal debate, we’re asking for social pressure by the people these men respect as people: other men.

Please stop and think for a second about how this conversation of two people trying to guide you away from encouraging others to make very risky moves is taking up time and effort that could be directed towards the threats.

11 November at 20:04 | Open on mastodon.online
Locksmith replied to Jay

@WhiteCatTamer @noodlemaz @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan

I agree with all. Yet I say both things can be true and be done at the same time. One is sick, one works to improve the body's strength and resistance while at the same time one takes the medicine to eliminate the disease.

11 November at 21:21 | Open on infosec.exchange
Noodlemaz replied to Locksmith

@locksmithprime @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan when did turning into a retaliatory bully stop bullying?
Teaching women self defense is only ever a plaster/band-aid over a problem. Helpful for some. It doesn't stop many men.

Only reworking society does that, & men (+ some women, but mainly men bc those assholes don't give a shit what women say to them abt their behaviour) have the power to do that.
Spend more time telling men how to do better & less telling women how to respond

11 November at 20:36 | Open on med-mastodon.com
Locksmith replied to Noodlemaz

@noodlemaz @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan

I am not telling how to respond, but I advocate for teaching and giving them tools. Men have been told how to do better for millennia. Where has that gotten us? Where has that gotten us?

I would never teach my daughters to attempt to stop a bully or attacker with messages of love and compassion. Call an adult? "I'm gonna tell?" "I promise I won't tell?" "Please you don't have to do that?" No. First stop them by breaking their bones. THEN you can debate with them. If they choose not do use the tools, then I accept, but I will not be remiss in not showing them they can be more effective in protecting themselves with something else than words.

Words work with idiots like me, because I work to evolve out of my manly shell of ignorance and lack of vision. I always rather resort to intelligence. If those men who say "your body, my choice" had any modicum of intelligence in them? If bullies had any sense or ears in them?

@noodlemaz @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan

I am not telling how to respond, but I advocate for teaching and giving them tools. Men have been told how to do better for millennia. Where has that gotten us? Where has that gotten us?

I would never teach my daughters to attempt to stop a bully or attacker with messages of love and compassion. Call an adult? "I'm gonna tell?" "I promise I won't tell?" "Please you don't have to do that?" No. First stop them by breaking their bones. THEN...

11 November at 21:18 | Open on infosec.exchange
Noodlemaz replied to Locksmith

@locksmithprime @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan nobody here is asking for a debate with rapists and wannabe rapists.
You're not listening.

11 November at 21:33 | Open on med-mastodon.com
Jay replied to Locksmith
Locksmith replied to Jay

@WhiteCatTamer @noodlemaz @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan

We are using words here, are we not? Are we not discussing, sharing views? Is it perhaps heated? Yes, and that is fine. I believe this is still a non violent conversation.

11 November at 22:17 | Open on infosec.exchange
Locksmith replied to Locksmith

@WhiteCatTamer @noodlemaz @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan

Anyhow, I see that the conversation is breaking down, and I sense how it is going to end. Before it does, perhaps I shall bid my adieu and wish good luck.

I will note that, in all this talk about approaching those hardened ones with words, showing them the way with reason and compassion, not violence; all it took us were three or four rounds of posts for us to give up. Block, move on. And we want to have THIS as the sole wiinning strategy to deal with bullies. Harassers. Abusers. Intellectually closed. People who are so immersed into their fog of mind that they cannot see any further than their own voices.

We go with our lives in the world of flesh. Controversy? Block, move on? Confrontation? Block, move on? Difference of opinion or politics? Block, move on? That really worked well for us here in the US.

@WhiteCatTamer @noodlemaz @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan

Anyhow, I see that the conversation is breaking down, and I sense how it is going to end. Before it does, perhaps I shall bid my adieu and wish good luck.

I will note that, in all this talk about approaching those hardened ones with words, showing them the way with reason and compassion, not violence; all it took us were three or four rounds of posts for us to give up. Block, move on. And we want to have THIS as the sole wiinning strategy...

12 November at 0:34 | Open on infosec.exchange
Jay replied to Locksmith
Locksmith replied to Jay

@WhiteCatTamer @noodlemaz @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan

Not according to the thread and original poster, but I have overextended my time.

Good luck.

12 November at 0:45 | Open on infosec.exchange
Locksmith replied to Noodlemaz

@noodlemaz @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan

Perhaps try the pragmatic way. The current one is not working.

11 November at 19:55 | Open on infosec.exchange
Jay replied to Locksmith

@locksmithprime @noodlemaz @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan Asking men to be more confrontational with their peers is the pragmatic way. Asking women to risk retaliatory violence and felonies is not.

It can be as simple as shaking your head in disgust and walking away from the speaker. It can be as involved as having months long arguments with friends going down the rabbit hole.

But it is far safer for all.

11 November at 20:01 | Open on mastodon.online
Locksmith replied to Jay

@WhiteCatTamer @noodlemaz @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan

Yes. But what if that is not enough? Should we allow, then, violence against women because we refused to show them how to defend themselves?

11 November at 21:27 | Open on infosec.exchange
Noodlemaz replied to Locksmith

@locksmithprime @WhiteCatTamer @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan no and that wasn't what I was saying. I don't think this is productive so I bid you a good night

11 November at 21:34 | Open on med-mastodon.com
Jay replied to Locksmith

@locksmithprime @noodlemaz @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan Why do you believe a woman not responding to a verbal threat with physical violence is the same as failing to teach women how to defend themselves?

Every single martial arts teacher I’ve trained under has stressed the point that if you can get away without fighting, that is the best outcome.

I’m not advocating for pacifism.

11 November at 21:37 | Open on mastodon.online
Locksmith replied to Jay

@WhiteCatTamer @noodlemaz @rupert @JohnSullivan @realtegan

No no. Not a verbal threat. I am talking about physical violence. One can use words to defend against words.

11 November at 22:13 | Open on infosec.exchange
Patsy (she/her) replied to Noodlemaz

@noodlemaz @locksmithprime @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan

I would like to add to this that, while I enjoy messages of girl power etc, in reality there are very very few men I could take in a fight

Of course there are women who are skilled in martial arts or otherwise good at fighting, but that is not most women. And certainly not me.

For me, specifically, if violence ensues, whoever starts it, I will be worse off.

11 November at 21:46 | Open on mastodon.ie
Locksmith replied to Patsy

@patsytheshark @noodlemaz @rupert @WhiteCatTamer @JohnSullivan @realtegan

It does not have to be this way. You can learn tools that, if never used, can at least serve as good physical fitness.

11 November at 22:21 | Open on infosec.exchange
ProScience replied to Noodlemaz

@noodlemaz

Labelling self-defence "escalating" and "making the situation violent" is exactly in line with the misogynistic Trumpians.

Deepest contempt for you.

12 November at 4:26 | Open on toot.community
Willow

@WhiteCatTamer @rupert @noodlemaz @JohnSullivan @realtegan
Women don't need to use violence. They can use reason and banishment.

11 November at 20:08 | Open on mastodon.social
Willow

@noodlemaz @JohnSullivan @realtegan
I agree with you except for the part where you say only men have the power to hold these men accountable. Women can, and should, hold these men accountable.

11 November at 20:06 | Open on mastodon.social
Noodlemaz

@willow1958 @JohnSullivan @realtegan how do you hold someone accountable who doesn't see you as a human being, who doesn't believe you have any authority?

I totally agree women can eg leave/divorce terrible men (when they have the means and safety to do so). Women with sons can help to teach them values, respect, guide them away from hate.

But the existing misogynists? They are not women's responsibility. In a misogynistic, patriarchal society, it's men who have most power to change men.

11 November at 20:38 | Open on med-mastodon.com
Willow

@noodlemaz @JohnSullivan @realtegan
I did not say it was the responsibility of women to correct men. I said women can and should. I escaped misogyny not by asking to go, but by going. If women want things to be better for them and their children, they must know they have the right and ability to make changes. Of course, men should make changes, but if they are not willing, we do have the ability to make our own changes.

11 November at 20:46 | Open on mastodon.social
Willow

@noodlemaz @JohnSullivan @realtegan
One day my ex went to work. I left without a word and haven't seen him for 40 years. I knew he wouldn't change, so I made the changes that I needed.

11 November at 20:47 | Open on mastodon.social
Noodlemaz
Willow

@noodlemaz @JohnSullivan @realtegan
So am I. I became strong and have no regrets. We can do anything we are willing to do. Don't let anyone make you doubt that. We are not responsible for making anything better, but we can if we want to. Cheers, m'dear.

11 November at 20:56 | Open on mastodon.social
Noodlemaz

@willow1958 @JohnSullivan @realtegan I am fine, though I thank you for the kind words. I'm watching my friends and a whole bunch of strangers suffer from afar and like you I want them to be safe.

11 November at 21:33 | Open on med-mastodon.com
Willow

@noodlemaz @JohnSullivan @realtegan
So do I. It saddens me that we are in a never-ending fight with people who should love us, but that is the way it has always been and will be for a long time to come. We don't have to hate them, but we also don't have to allow them to treat us badly. We have the choice.

11 November at 21:46 | Open on mastodon.social
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