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josef

i think the privatization and financialization of everyday services and goods has done more than anything in culture to make society decohere. interacting with the world on basically any level now largely consists of attempting to outwit giant systems designed to exploit you. from the perspective of an individual, there is virtually no consistent expectation of any duty of care, moral responsibility, or trust evident in daily life, so there's little to suggest you value those qualities either

56 comments
josef

i think getting deceived and scammed constantly, all the time, by everyone, at every level, has somewhat more of an effect on a person's moral expectations than witnessing a cracked windowpane in their neighborhood

Krutonium

@jk Honestly a lot of it is just the bullshit like hiding hundreds of exceptions in the fine print - just as an example. Not technically a scam, legally, but holy hell that is not what you intended to pay for.

J.H.Noyes

@jk

Excellent point. Nearly ten years of this shit and I'm exhausted.

Janne

@jk Kafka wrote of a faceless opressive, nightmare. It didn't occur to him it could be so profitable.

Rachamim Farnworth

@janvenetor @jk my husband will not read Kafka because dealing with the British benefits, social care and NHS bureaucracies is like living in a Kafka story already

Alex White-Robinson

@RachamimOnWheels @janvenetor @jk there's a bunch of tv shows and books I just can't read any more too. Dirty Politics, about the NZ 'national party'. West Wing and Veep. Big Money Crime.

I still force myself to read Arendt - The Origins of Totalitarianism & On Revolution. Even if I'm sometimes viewing the pages through tears.

Steven Bodzin bike & subscribe

@jk Yes, and most of all when those doing the scamming are clearly higher on the social status scale. Getting scammed or robbed by a loser sucks, but getting taken by a megacorp, by a rich guy, or by the state itself is multiple times more scarring

Steven Bodzin bike & subscribe

@jk Whenever people bring up "broken windows" or its more reputable offspring, I just think about cars. All these Porsche Cayennes and giant Escalades zooming around, cutting me off, killing my friends, often as not with concealed license plates and a high-status, perfectly coiffed person behind the wheel.

"Jokerize" is a joke word but it's a real thing

CourtneyCantrell won't go back

@stevenbodzin @jk As I drove my 12yo to school this morning, we encountered a road-raging driver in an Escalade. Half again the size of my vehicle. With behaviors aimed at me and my car, the man behind the wheel yelled, honked, flipped me off, ran up hard on my bumper, tried to push me out of my lane with his massive vehicle, got in front of me and braked hard, and just otherwise bullied me for more than 2 miles.

1/2

CourtneyCantrell won't go back

@stevenbodzin @jk All because minutes before, I'd signalled my intentions & changed lanes into a lane with a gap of 4 or 5 car lengths behind me. Bad luck for me, I was going the speed limit and Escalade cockwomble was going about 10mph above, and the lane I entered apparently belonged to him.

After harassing me for 2 miles, he finally gunned his engine & zoomed ahead to run up on several other cars & get pushy with their lanes too.

I called the police and gave them his license plate.

2/2

Steven Bodzin bike & subscribe

@courtcan that´s so terrifying and unpleasant. It´s good you kept your head and that you felt comfortable calling the cops. Around here I would assume it was a cop. Good luck.

Poloniousmonk

@courtcan

I'm old enough to remember when that sort of behavior was an extremely rare occurrence. In a lot of ways, I blame the surveillance state.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not encouraging the tactics that used to keep those kinds of assholes in check. It's not my job to enforce civility. But some people did enforce civility in the bad old days of no cameras. I spent a year working as a courier and one of our drivers kept a bucket of D batteries in his van. If somebody was being a flagrant asshole on the highway, he took out their windshield.

Now I know that can kill somebody, both by penetrating the windshield and by causing an accident. I would never do something like that, not even as a wild, lawless teenage vandal. But some people would. Some people don't care. My first boss gave me some good advice--don't fuck with truckers or bikers. Couriers are similar to truckers.

These days, that incident would be on camera, and the guy with the batteries would get hauled off to prison.

I also see surveillance society encouraging(?) creating(?)...we deal with a lot more mass shooters now because nobody has any smaller outlet for what is justifiable rage at the state of things. There is no halfway step a person can take--once they break bad, they know their life is over anyway so they structure the snappage to cause maximum harm on the way out.

Hell, I think the unavailability of more minor outlets is why the plague rats get off running around and making people sick. It's a way to deniably cause harm.

There always was a better way.

@courtcan

I'm old enough to remember when that sort of behavior was an extremely rare occurrence. In a lot of ways, I blame the surveillance state.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not encouraging the tactics that used to keep those kinds of assholes in check. It's not my job to enforce civility. But some people did enforce civility in the bad old days of no cameras. I spent a year working as a courier and one of our drivers kept a bucket of D batteries in his van. If somebody was being a flagrant asshole...

Cass (they/them)

@Uair @courtcan This is an interesting perspective to consider. All limitation of anti-social behavior is supposed to fall to the state now but the state does jackshit about any of it below or above a given threshold. Like you said, ways people used to discourage certain types of antisocial behavior weren't always good, but letting it go unchecked is likely worse in some ways, especially when it comes to shit like straight-up nazis feeling comfortable as hell in public now.

AnnieBuddy

@courtcan @stevenbodzin @jk

I was on a highway here recently where a guy was being dangerously aggressive. I pulled over to call the police and let him go ahead - but you have to be careful stopping when you are dealing with someone like that.

Anyway, just as I was about to turn off the highway about 20 minutes later, I saw the police had him pulled over.

Call them in. Get a dash cam. They endanger everyone on the road. Let their insurance companies deal with them.

Kellen Malek

@jk I spent a summer working for a public library, where I rode around on a cargo bike full of books and set the bike up at spots around the community. It was pretty wild how many folks were just relieved and suddenly thrilled by the fact that they could just chat with a stranger who genuinely cared about them and had no ulterior motives to sell, scam, or pitch anything.

sidereal

@kellenjmalek @jk Wild. I thought about doing this just for fun as a way to get rid of my extra books. I guess I should take this as a sign to do it haha

Dag Ågren ↙︎↙︎↙︎

@jk youtube.com/watch?v=4FM7XeaSO0 has a line it that goes just, "A fake card in a fake bank machine" and that line just evokes so strongly all of what you just said.

grepe

@jk yes! it should be pointed out that regulation of business practices can do much to mitigate this problem and because of that it is worse in some countries than in others (as a european, trying to book an airbnb or going to a grocery store in the US is a soul crushing experience). but you are right in principle and perhaps we should go beyond just regulation... guaranteed sick leave and similar things can truly transform how people think and what they expect from businesses and each other.

8r3nt gu14n0w5k1

@jk

Stockholm syndrome when corporations (executives and investors) hold us hostage. Our only hope is strong government and regulation, but the boss tells us not to trust government, they take our money. Whereas the boss gives us money, so clearly has our interests at heart.

Money corrupts everything, because it is the perfect reputation laundry. We talk about “dirty money”, but there is no such thing as clean money. It all has blood and drugs on it.

Leonard Ritter

@jk we all believed politicians were corrupt when they were still honest. the new ones just play for us the role we already expected to see, so they seem like *honest* crooks.

Gary Houston

@jk are cracked windowpanes such a concern? I have a few. I was going to get around to replacing them some year.

JNL

@jk there's a requisite acceptance of futility piece here, too, and the 'I'll just not think about this' required to live with it. Adhesion contracts attached to everything electronic that we use for daily life. There are definitely analogues to an abusive relationship or a panopticon-style imprisonment environment, as far as lack of meaningful consent and constant surveillance go

Stephen Farrugia

@jk @tante all while we are in the age of UX. The greatest rebrand of marketing and propaganda ever.

Meznor

@jk it's the rootiest of all the root causes of why we have a complete erosion of trust of every major democratic institution in the western world.

Larry Smith

@Meznor @jk
I can't disagree. I think having billionaires in a society exposes some kind of serious flaw in their governance.

I've seen some complaints that we have too many MBAs, as if the billionaires are trained thus. I don't know about that. An MBA teaches you about the elements of business, economics, finance, marketing, accounting, risk management, dealing with personal, statistics, and management, putting all the elements together to make good decisions.

It doesn't teach you to be greedy, to undercut your competition, or to abuse your employees. That's something of the character of billionaires.

I do see a slippage of the government's personal ethics however. As business depends upon making good financial and marketing decisions, I think public service depends upon ethics. The foundation is there, the oath of office. But the oath is no longer enforced.

@Meznor @jk
I can't disagree. I think having billionaires in a society exposes some kind of serious flaw in their governance.

I've seen some complaints that we have too many MBAs, as if the billionaires are trained thus. I don't know about that. An MBA teaches you about the elements of business, economics, finance, marketing, accounting, risk management, dealing with personal, statistics, and management, putting all the elements together to make good decisions.

Rastal

@jk And it's going to get a lot worse with #G3P

martums :unverified:

@Rastal @jk is #G3P
glyceraldehyde 3-phosphate, or
glycerol-3-phosphate, or the
Global Gravity-based Groundwater Product…or
Something else?

#jmfc #ShittyAcronymsAreShyte

Benjamin Reed

@jk @tante as I saw someone else say, “we got cyberpunk without all the cool bits”

nasser

@jk I'm convinced that 1) commodifying everything and 2) making the philosophy of pricing "whatever you can get" has created a society of gamblers and charlatans with predictable results

allison

@nasser @jk I think it's even weirder than this—I have a theory that (in the US at least) appearing to be a charlatan now actually makes a person seem *more trustworthy*, since it's a strong cultural indicator of that person's opposition to the values of the political left (sort of a "schismogenesis" situation a la Dawn of Everything). being on the take is a marker of social status for this group and people see being grifted as prosocial behavior (hence the popularity of MLMs in red states)

ShadSterling

@jk the youngs are not depressed because they have smartphones, they are bereft because they have never known anything but this.

Bart

@jk look at ancient civilizations, society is based on hoarding resources for winter

Kid Mania

@jk
"...from the perspective of an individual, there is virtually no consistent expectation of any duty of care, moral responsibility, or trust evident in daily life, so there's little to suggest you value those qualities either..."

Well put. I would only tack on:

...and at some point you just don't.

Kat the Leopardess

@jk Not to mention the additional gaslighting and move to redirect onus on top of everything else. So many sensible-looking areas and spaces of discourse, but it is common that you bringing up concerns (centered around these exploitative systems and scams) gets seen by others as either

a) Spreading/sowing FUD
b) Have a low opinion or low confidence in yourself
c) Are just negging, sharing your pessimism with others.

Leta_Darnell

@jk You are not an individual. You are a $ or pricetag

Alexander Hamizdat

@jk there was a whole four season TV show in the US and the finale was basically what you said writ large

acowley

@jk @federicomena With big bureaucratic (government) monoliths, people can feel crushed by an unfeeling machine with no alternatives available. With privatization, there was an optimism that multiple vendors would compete against each other to the benefit of their customers, but it’s too easy for would-be competitors to effectively collude against their customers who now have less representation than they did with the monolith!

crazyeddie

@jk I find this with pretty much all interactions now. Not just "the system", but just every day interactions. A lot of it caused by the fact that "the system" is non-functional and nobody has any more fucks to give.

In that movie about Milgram he dies while waiting for his wife to fill out the paper work to get him into the computer, and he cites the reason he'll get no help because it was one of the outcomes of his studies: computer says.

Robbie Coleman :verified:

@jk
My God how your words ring true! You've nailed it.

Shifting this paradigm back towards humanity seems necessary before we all give up.

Finitum

@jk
if you'd like to talk to your neighbor, download the app to make an appointment! [Click through to agree to 40 page EULA- All conversations using the app are hereby property of nabr, you release use of your likeness, genetic makeup, and dog/cat].
The world made worse by data brokers trying to sell you shit you don't need.

MostlyTato

@jk
I assume every contact from any company I get is a scam until I can see otherwise, I never answer the phone to anyone not in my book, some of my email accounts are all scam emails every day, and I assume all customer support is designed to get you to go away.
So yeah, when a company actually behaves responsibly or offers genuinely good service I'm not just surprised, I'm shocked.

Jonah Gibberish

@jk Capitalism incentivizes sociopathic behavior.

William Gunn

@jk I think I see the point you're making - the systems we interact with are complex and often misaligned with our goals. We also have more options than before these systems existed, don't we? I mean, it's nice that I have the option to request a ride at any moment, even if surge pricing exists and the platform exploits drivers. It's not like traditional cabs had my best interest in mind, right?

Peter Butler

@williamgunn @jk But it seems like those options can now only come within that system of repression

Imagine an open-source Uber/Lyft where drivers get paid fairly. It seems impossible

neonharbinger

@jk I agree, but literature also tells us this is far from new. Fiction like "Grapes of Wrath" comes to mind. Theorists, like Marx or, hell, even Smith (who hated landlords, lol), discuss and warn about many of our problems. Any history about life prior to regulation, particularly on food and medicine, speaks volumes. It seems to me actually rarer when we avoid chaotic, predatory systems. Time and again, antisocial sorts rise to power and destroy society and the relationships within it.

An Inhabitant of Carcosa

@neonharbinger @jk The difference today, in as much as there is one, is that more and more spaces and types of interactions that weren't expected to be sites of extraction now are.

FinalOverdrive

@jk Horrors aside, it does mark as an interesting social experiment. The data is interesting at least.

I think there are brains that can cope with these situations, exercising care; being morally responsible; and finding people to trust in the face of all this. But clearly most struggle if this isn't relatively easy to start with.

But the decoherence, to me, is an independent variable. It was going to happen whether neoliberalism was implemented or not.

acetone_kitten

@jk
not only services and goods but especially and particularly _spaces_

Kyuseishun

@jk there is a ideological component, even in Argentina where there are *comparatively* stronger public institutions the right always speaks of some scam the public sector is always perpetuating

Josh Rivers

@jk Thank you for this beautiful thought and post.

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