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HeavenlyPossum

@storyworker @violetmadder @Daojoan

> “from whom am I to rent?”

Landlords, of course, in the same way that feudal peasants would have received the same answer to the same question.

I’m not telling you that you’re doing anything wrong. “The system in which we’re forced to live is unjust” doesn’t mean you’ve done anything wrong by renting. I too am a renter.

> “They have provided me more than housing - they have provided me a home, one where I have been able to dramatically rebuild what was a pretty awful life.”

No, they are using their control of a scarce resource to extract rents from you. Unless they’re renting to you at a loss, your rent is paying for the capital costs on the house—the mortgage, upkeep, etc. *You* finance their ownership of the house in which you live, with no ownership rights despite paying those capital costs.

You might also be paying them wages on top of buying them a house, if your rent is greater than those capital costs.

57 comments
story worker

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan this is the problem with so much discourse these days - I've offered you a personal and heartfelt reflection of my own experience as a renter, and you've remained lost on a labyrinth of words and concepts. Life is an experience between people, not concepts and word play. Your need to remain cynical is yours alone.

HeavenlyPossum

@Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder

I am not describing a labyrinth of words and concepts. You are purchasing housing for your landlord, and possibly paying them a salary in the process.

That doesn’t mean you can’t feel gratitude that you are housed. I am immensely grateful that I am housed. That doesn’t mean you can’t have a positive interpersonal relationship with your landlord. I’m not questioning your personal experience.

I would like people to be able to see things for how they really are, and landlording really is a feudal holdover.

@Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder

I am not describing a labyrinth of words and concepts. You are purchasing housing for your landlord, and possibly paying them a salary in the process.

That doesn’t mean you can’t feel gratitude that you are housed. I am immensely grateful that I am housed. That doesn’t mean you can’t have a positive interpersonal relationship with your landlord. I’m not questioning your personal experience.

story worker

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder "seeing things for how they really are" is a very treacherous path to walk. What that statement really means is - "seeing things as I see them". In my estimation of how things really are - this vast and incomprehensible universe has provided me with a roof over my head, and a bed in which to lay at night, and this has manifested through what we commonly know as "landlords". Feel free to state your position, but don't burden it as being "things as they are"

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@storyworker @Daojoan @violetmadder

Medieval serfs were also taught to believe that their feudal lord had provided them the homes that those serfs had built and the farms that those serfs worked.

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder I'm not a medieval serf. I am just someone who believes that the universe has given me a roof over my head right now, manifested through what I know as my landlord. Is my experience of reality sound? probably not, is it valid? probably not. Is it my experience of my reality ? yes it is. So for me, it is sound, and it is valid.

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker

The universe did not give you a roof over your head. A builder constructed it and you are financing its costs and upkeep.

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan You telling me my experience of this life is wrong? Wrong for me or wrong for you? Give me some clarity here.

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@Daojoan @violetmadder @storyworker

Your claim is false. “The universe” did not provide you with a roof over your head. It did not suddenly appear. It did not congeal through magic. It did not accrete through natural processes. Someone made it (a builder) and someone financed it (you).

Landlords merely interject themselves into that process to collect rents—a toll, a private tax—off your need for housing.

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder Are you really telling me my experience of reality is false? Seems a bit of a rude thing to do. Just admit it - it's just your own opinion, don't try to hook that one on me.

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@violetmadder @storyworker @Daojoan

Yes, I am making the claim that “the universe provided it” is a nicely poetical metaphor but it doesn’t change the reality of how houses are built or financed.

Are you telling me that no one built your house and no one pays for it?

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan I'm a buddhist, but I won't get into how "no one" might be regarded. Why does it have to be a poetical metaphor? Why so dismissive of another persons experience of reality? i know that my house was built, and is payed for, but that's none of my business. It allows me to do the work that I need to do. I'll pay the karmic debt for that at some point in this journey, no doubt.

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker

It is your business because it is your home and you are financing its costs through your rent while accruing no ownership over it.

HeavenlyPossum replied to HeavenlyPossum

@Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder

“Feudal exploitation is ok because the self is an illusion” is a hell of a take but it would go a long way towards explaining the survival of feudal landlording by Buddhists in Buddhist societies in which people are ostensibly eschewing the accumulation of material wealth.

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan No it is none of my business. I don't wish to own this building. It is my home and it is allowing me to do the work that I need to do, beyond that - it is none of my business. Keep telling me that it is, but that's none of my business either. I'm not even sure if the work I am doing is any of my business. It's just there to be done.

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker

I’m sorry that this has upset you so much, to hear how landlording actually works

HeavenlyPossum replied to HeavenlyPossum

@storyworker @Daojoan @violetmadder

“I don't wish to own this building”

That’s good because men with guns will prevent you from doing so, even though you are financing it yourself.

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan who said i am upset? It's rather condescending and arrogant to presume that my offering of my own perspective, as much as it differs from your own, comes from place of ignorance of what it is that you are trying to say. Are you able to hold a different viewpoint AND comprehend other viewpoints???

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan then you can assume that i also have that ability.
I'm not here by mistake.

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@storyworker @Daojoan @violetmadder

Are you unfamiliar with the concept of being wrong?

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder yes of course I am. Are you?
Are you familiar with the concept of subjectivity?

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker

Yes. I have repeatedly and explicitly endorsed your subjective experience of your landlord as positive.

Panda Cab replied to story

@storyworker

You say that it is your home. Isn't it by default your business? If the current owner decides to kick you out, wouldn't that be an issue? A direct impact on your life? I still can't understand your resistance to the idea of owning your home?

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan

story worker replied to Panda

@FrenchPanda @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan well darnit. I'm just a complex human being - surely you've encountered that before? Just because you see it differently to me, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. You able to let that land in you somewhere?

Panda Cab replied to story

@storyworker

Okay then. You don't care about whatever happens to you and your living place. I cannot even fathom that, and I don't understand your "complexity" but okay.

Less complex people tend to not like not having control over the place they live in. They don't like to be faced with the options of paying more and more money each year or be homeless. They would actually like being able to be sure that their home is actually their home.

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan

HeavenlyPossum replied to Panda

@Daojoan @violetmadder @FrenchPanda @storyworker

Rentierism consists of a person who threatens to hurt you, or kill you, if you don’t work for them.

Sometimes it’s quite naked and explicit. Sometimes it’s obfuscated behind elaborate social rituals and fictions. By far the most common of these fictions is the ownership of some asset you need to survive. “Pay me or I will starve you to death.”

That’s it. That’s the distilled essence of rentier ownership. That’s what every rentier relationship consists of. You labor on their behalf, and in return they refrain from hurting you, or killing you. A protection racket. The only thing the rentier owner “provides” you is a promise not to hurt you, at least until the next month’s rent is due.

Most people don’t like that.

@Daojoan @violetmadder @FrenchPanda @storyworker

Rentierism consists of a person who threatens to hurt you, or kill you, if you don’t work for them.

Sometimes it’s quite naked and explicit. Sometimes it’s obfuscated behind elaborate social rituals and fictions. By far the most common of these fictions is the ownership of some asset you need to survive. “Pay me or I will starve you to death.”

HeavenlyPossum replied to levampyre

@Daojoan @levampyre @storyworker @violetmadder @FrenchPanda

Yes—the capitalist, the warlord, the landlord, the banker, the mafioso, the king, etc, are all variations on a central theme.

HeavenlyPossum replied to Panda

@Daojoan @violetmadder @storyworker @FrenchPanda

Or if not “owning one’s own home,” maybe more simply “dwelling in a home without paying a toll to someone who merely owns a tollbooth guarded by a cop with a gun.”

Housing is structured in capitalist societies as, generally, a choice between *renting* and *owning,* and owning comes with its own financial and cognitive burdens. It makes sense for a lot of people to reject home ownership in the sense of capitalist hegemony in a way that wouldn’t make sense absent that structure.

@Daojoan @violetmadder @storyworker @FrenchPanda

Or if not “owning one’s own home,” maybe more simply “dwelling in a home without paying a toll to someone who merely owns a tollbooth guarded by a cop with a gun.”

Housing is structured in capitalist societies as, generally, a choice between *renting* and *owning,* and owning comes with its own financial and cognitive burdens. It makes sense for a lot of people to reject home ownership in the sense of capitalist hegemony in a way that wouldn’t make...

story worker replied to Panda

@FrenchPanda @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan it is my home. You can see it how you want to, but I'm the one who lives here, so, I get to decide.

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@FrenchPanda @violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker

You don’t at all get to decide—your landlord owns the home, with all the coercive state authority that comes with that particular legal institution.

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @FrenchPanda @violetmadder @Daojoan ok this has been intriguing. But once you start delving into thinking that you have more right to determine how it is that another person experiences and defines their own reality, I'm pretty disinclined to continue engaging. Ideological dogma is ugly and dangerous - no matter what colour hat it wears. Cheers. Seeya.

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@Daojoan @violetmadder @storyworker @FrenchPanda

It’s easier to dismiss a new and uncomfortable idea as “ideological dogma” than actually consider that your understanding is incorrect. I get that! Cheers.

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder @FrenchPanda I've been studying social work the past 3 years, there is nothing new you are telling me here. Why conflate a different perspective with ignorance?

Panda Cab replied to story

@storyworker

If your landlord says that you have to move at the end of the month, what exactly can you do? To which extent can you actually decide?

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan

story worker replied to Panda

@FrenchPanda @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Having a home allows me to do the work I need to do. Having to leave at the end of the month would also allow me to do the work I need to do.

Panda Cab replied to story

@storyworker

You're avoiding the question. You have done so for a while now...

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan

Shannon replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker
I think the point you may be missing here is that not everyone has the desire to own a home. Home ownership is a lot of responsibility and work that not all may be willing or capable of doing. Home ownership also typically implies that you plan to stay somewhere long term. Should people not be allowed to live nomadically? I'm all for abolishing rentirism, but we also need to consider and plan for how to house non-home owners during our pursuit to get there.

HeavenlyPossum replied to Shannon

@shamogan @Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder

I quite explicitly said in this thread that not wanting to own a home makes plenty of sense under capitalism, because it entails all sorts of financial and cognitive costs.

That doesn’t mean that being housed intrinsically accrues these costs, and it also doesn’t mean that rentierism somehow becomes good.

Shannon replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder
Even without Capitalism I think it's valid to not want to own a house. It's not just financial and cognitove cost. There is a lot of physical required to maintain a home, and not all are physically capable of that work.

HeavenlyPossum replied to Shannon

@violetmadder @storyworker @shamogan @Daojoan

Yes, I agree. All I’ve tried to convey is that “not wanting to purchase and own a home under capitalism” is not the same as “not wanting a permanent home in the abstract,” and the latter doesn’t somehow justify rentierism.

For example, if you’re not physically capable of maintaining a house and rent instead, you’re paying a landlord rents and probably a salary to hire a worker to perform maintenance. This is not something a landlord is necessary for; the landlord is still just inserted into a transaction between you and a maintenance worker.

There’s a whole universe of mechanisms by which people could live without permanent homes and still not rely on rentier landlords.

@violetmadder @storyworker @shamogan @Daojoan

Yes, I agree. All I’ve tried to convey is that “not wanting to purchase and own a home under capitalism” is not the same as “not wanting a permanent home in the abstract,” and the latter doesn’t somehow justify rentierism.

For example, if you’re not physically capable of maintaining a house and rent instead, you’re paying a landlord rents and probably a salary to hire a worker to perform maintenance. This is not something a landlord is necessary for;...

Shannon replied to Shannon

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder
To bring this around to the original post, which calls for a "poison-pill tax" to force non-occupant owned homes to sell to at lower prices, there is a group being forgotten in this strategy: the current renters of these homes. Many of these renters would still not be the ones able to afford (or willing) to buy those homes. So if this policy we're to be followed without also investing in alternative housing options, such as co-ops, we would see a displacement of current residents renting in that area to those who have the will and means to buy.

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder
To bring this around to the original post, which calls for a "poison-pill tax" to force non-occupant owned homes to sell to at lower prices, there is a group being forgotten in this strategy: the current renters of these homes. Many of these renters would still not be the ones able to afford (or willing) to buy those homes. So if this policy we're to be followed without also investing in alternative housing options, such as co-ops, we would see...

Shannon replied to Shannon

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder and so I believe what @storyworker was expressing is that they are glad they have renting as an alternative to owning, and as someone who does not want to own, they we're asking if you removed all the landlords, how would they get access to housing, if not thorugh renting. Which is a valid question, in my opinion.

HeavenlyPossum replied to Shannon

@Daojoan @violetmadder @shamogan @storyworker

I noted from the very beginning that being grateful for an opportunity to rent is a perfectly legitimate survival mechanism under capitalism, and that I was not criticizing this response at all. You can scroll back up through this thread to read that.

My goal is not to abolish landlords by forcing them to sell; my goal is the abolition of landlords through the decommodification of housing.

Shannon replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder @storyworker
That's great that is your goal but that's not what is being talked about in the original post, which is what they commented on

story worker

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder With respect, and apologies - after nearly 3 years in the social work academic space, I have become somewhat adverse to blanket statements, such as "No one should be allowed to own a residence where they do not actually reside." - These issues always merit nuance, and invite complexity.

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder

The only way that people can own things that they don’t personally use or occupy is through either a) the consent of everyone involved or b) institutional violence.

Landlords do not have everyone’s consent. What they do have is institutional violence—cops who will hurt you if you don’t pay a toll for living in your home, the same as medieval lords.

Remove that institutional violence and all that’s left for them is consent or, better, living in their home while you live in yours.

@Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder

The only way that people can own things that they don’t personally use or occupy is through either a) the consent of everyone involved or b) institutional violence.

Landlords do not have everyone’s consent. What they do have is institutional violence—cops who will hurt you if you don’t pay a toll for living in your home, the same as medieval lords.

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder My landlords have my consent to rent me their home. I'm ok with it. I get it that you are not, but I hope you are also able to be ok with the fact that I am ok with it, and that there are plenty of people who are also quite content to remain as renters - and without the current arrangement, as it is, that would not be possible. Historical contexts are always lovely, and there is so much academic discourse to be had here, but at the end of the day . I'm home

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder

I have quite explicitly told you that I am not criticizing you for your choices.

Consent given under duress, however, is not freely given.

story worker replied to HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder Sorry - here sits just a fleeting space time event, currently known as "me", dancing through an eternal space time field - not sure how it is that you can say that I am under duress - because I am certainly not. You can, of course, assert to me that I am under duress, but you would need to do that - under duress.

HeavenlyPossum replied to story

@storyworker @violetmadder @Daojoan

People who do not pay landlords or banks for housing are typically under threat of being violently made unhoused, with all of the harms that come along with that.

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