Gregory's Server@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder "seeing things for how they really are" is a very treacherous path to walk. What that statement really means is - "seeing things as I see them". In my estimation of how things really are - this vast and incomprehensible universe has provided me with a roof over my head, and a bed in which to lay at night, and this has manifested through what we commonly know as "landlords". Feel free to state your position, but don't burden it as being "things as they are"
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@HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder I'm not a medieval serf. I am just someone who believes that the universe has given me a roof over my head right now, manifested through what I know as my landlord. Is my experience of reality sound? probably not, is it valid? probably not. Is it my experience of my reality ? yes it is. So for me, it is sound, and it is valid. @violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker The universe did not give you a roof over your head. A builder constructed it and you are financing its costs and upkeep. @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan You telling me my experience of this life is wrong? Wrong for me or wrong for you? Give me some clarity here. @Daojoan @violetmadder @storyworker Your claim is false. “The universe” did not provide you with a roof over your head. It did not suddenly appear. It did not congeal through magic. It did not accrete through natural processes. Someone made it (a builder) and someone financed it (you). Landlords merely interject themselves into that process to collect rents—a toll, a private tax—off your need for housing. @HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder Are you really telling me my experience of reality is false? Seems a bit of a rude thing to do. Just admit it - it's just your own opinion, don't try to hook that one on me. @violetmadder @storyworker @Daojoan Yes, I am making the claim that “the universe provided it” is a nicely poetical metaphor but it doesn’t change the reality of how houses are built or financed. Are you telling me that no one built your house and no one pays for it? @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan I'm a buddhist, but I won't get into how "no one" might be regarded. Why does it have to be a poetical metaphor? Why so dismissive of another persons experience of reality? i know that my house was built, and is payed for, but that's none of my business. It allows me to do the work that I need to do. I'll pay the karmic debt for that at some point in this journey, no doubt. @violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker It is your business because it is your home and you are financing its costs through your rent while accruing no ownership over it. @Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder “Feudal exploitation is ok because the self is an illusion” is a hell of a take but it would go a long way towards explaining the survival of feudal landlording by Buddhists in Buddhist societies in which people are ostensibly eschewing the accumulation of material wealth. @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan No it is none of my business. I don't wish to own this building. It is my home and it is allowing me to do the work that I need to do, beyond that - it is none of my business. Keep telling me that it is, but that's none of my business either. I'm not even sure if the work I am doing is any of my business. It's just there to be done. @violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker I’m sorry that this has upset you so much, to hear how landlording actually works @storyworker @Daojoan @violetmadder “I don't wish to own this building” That’s good because men with guns will prevent you from doing so, even though you are financing it yourself. @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan who said i am upset? It's rather condescending and arrogant to presume that my offering of my own perspective, as much as it differs from your own, comes from place of ignorance of what it is that you are trying to say. Are you able to hold a different viewpoint AND comprehend other viewpoints??? @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan then you can assume that i also have that ability. @storyworker @Daojoan @violetmadder Are you unfamiliar with the concept of being wrong? @HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder yes of course I am. Are you? @violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker Yes. I have repeatedly and explicitly endorsed your subjective experience of your landlord as positive. @FrenchPanda @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan well darnit. I'm just a complex human being - surely you've encountered that before? Just because you see it differently to me, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. You able to let that land in you somewhere? Okay then. You don't care about whatever happens to you and your living place. I cannot even fathom that, and I don't understand your "complexity" but okay. Less complex people tend to not like not having control over the place they live in. They don't like to be faced with the options of paying more and more money each year or be homeless. They would actually like being able to be sure that their home is actually their home.  @HeavenlyPossum Sounds like The Maffia. @Daojoan @violetmadder @FrenchPanda @storyworker @Daojoan @levampyre @storyworker @violetmadder @FrenchPanda Yes—the capitalist, the warlord, the landlord, the banker, the mafioso, the king, etc, are all variations on a central theme.  @RD4Anarchy @storyworker @FrenchPanda @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan Sometimes I get reminders of why I'm an atheist in the first place. It's not about metaphysics, it's that most religions are apologies for oppression. @FrenchPanda @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan it is my home. You can see it how you want to, but I'm the one who lives here, so, I get to decide. @FrenchPanda @violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker You don’t at all get to decide—your landlord owns the home, with all the coercive state authority that comes with that particular legal institution. @HeavenlyPossum @FrenchPanda @violetmadder @Daojoan ok this has been intriguing. But once you start delving into thinking that you have more right to determine how it is that another person experiences and defines their own reality, I'm pretty disinclined to continue engaging. Ideological dogma is ugly and dangerous - no matter what colour hat it wears. Cheers. Seeya. @Daojoan @violetmadder @storyworker @FrenchPanda It’s easier to dismiss a new and uncomfortable idea as “ideological dogma” than actually consider that your understanding is incorrect. I get that! Cheers. @HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder @FrenchPanda I've been studying social work the past 3 years, there is nothing new you are telling me here. Why conflate a different perspective with ignorance? @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @storyworker @Daojoan @FrenchPanda If another person experiences and defines their reality as controlled by a Jewish conspiracy set to exterminate white people or defines their reality as drunk driving being really good I think I have a right to correct them. @FrenchPanda @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Having a home allows me to do the work I need to do. Having to leave at the end of the month would also allow me to do the work I need to do. @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan @storyworker @shamogan @Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder I quite explicitly said in this thread that not wanting to own a home makes plenty of sense under capitalism, because it entails all sorts of financial and cognitive costs. That doesn’t mean that being housed intrinsically accrues these costs, and it also doesn’t mean that rentierism somehow becomes good. @HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder @HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @storyworker @violetmadder and so I believe what @storyworker was expressing is that they are glad they have renting as an alternative to owning, and as someone who does not want to own, they we're asking if you removed all the landlords, how would they get access to housing, if not thorugh renting. Which is a valid question, in my opinion. @Daojoan @violetmadder @shamogan @storyworker I noted from the very beginning that being grateful for an opportunity to rent is a perfectly legitimate survival mechanism under capitalism, and that I was not criticizing this response at all. You can scroll back up through this thread to read that. My goal is not to abolish landlords by forcing them to sell; my goal is the abolition of landlords through the decommodification of housing. @HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder @storyworker  @storyworker @HeavenlyPossum @violetmadder @Daojoan you love the landlord-tenant property relationship because you found a nice flat near your university or whatever, but as soon as it's time to talk about the social impact on a larger scale — as a major vehicle for racialized poverty, for instance — nothing is real and everything is just vibes, the whole universe is vibing, man @storyworker @HeavenlyPossum @Daojoan @violetmadder Actually a medieval serf had to give a lot less of the product of their work than a modern person renting.. So, your circumstances are more difficult than a serf |
@storyworker @Daojoan @violetmadder
Medieval serfs were also taught to believe that their feudal lord had provided them the homes that those serfs had built and the farms that those serfs worked.