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Top-level
 @Lyude @lina @desttinghim If we take Rust out of the equation and look at any other large scale modernization effort, we see pretty much the same problems. I like to pick on folios because I'm mostly a storage guy, but that transition has been long and painful because there's fundamentally no real leadership in Linux. A lot of storage developers just cannot handle working in an organized fashion. DRM is the most organized subsystem and even it suffers through these kinds of problems. 13 comments
@Conan_Kudo @Lyude @lina @desttinghim One might say that other open-source projects don't have this issue. But we need to remember the size of the Linux Kernel project. I can't think about a open-source project that is as big as the kernel and has such a diversity of people (from all ages, genders, colors and cultures). It is different when we have 150 active contributors in a open-source project and when we have more than a thousand. @mairacanal @Lyude @lina @desttinghim Leadership comes in many forms, it doesn't imply a BDFL. Though note that Linux *does* have one in the form of Linus Torvalds. He just doesn't use that power much. But okay, leadership in a comparably sized project? Kubernetes qualifies. It might be overkill for many infrastructure architectures, but it definitely has *thousands* of contributors, an organized leadership for every part through SIGs with good feedback and decisionmaking processes. It can work. @mairacanal @Lyude @lina @desttinghim Maybe if there was some kind of even semi-formal decision-making and community engagement process for the kernel. Some kernel developers sometimes don't even like talking to each other, much less the people that try to use and contribute to it. Most kernel subsystems fail the test for a structured subcommunity, so no I don't think they qualify. @Conan_Kudo @Lyude @lina @desttinghim I feel that saying that "Some kernel developers sometimes don't even like talking to each other, much less the people that try to use and contribute to it" isn't really helpful to create a nice relationship with kernel developers. I also must point that this is your impression about kernel developers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't do a research between developers asking them those questions. @Conan_Kudo @Lyude @lina @desttinghim Usually, kernel developers (especially maintainers) are just trying to do their best in their limited time. @mairacanal @Lyude @lina @desttinghim I spend a lot of time interacting with kernel developers, so I *do* know. Mostly I'm in storage stuff, but I do pop up in other places too. I even have started going to Linux kernel conferences and engaging there. I was at the event that video referenced in the email that started this whole thing. @Lyude @mairacanal @lina @desttinghim Frankly, I'm a bit insulted that the assumption was that I don't know anything about the Linux kernel community. I've been a known quantity in that area for almost a decade, and I've been heavily engaged in several areas over the last couple of years thanks to the Asahi Linux project. What's frustrating is that this is a problem even when I engage with kernel developers who *already know* I have some know-how, but don't care and ignore my feedback anyway. @Conan_Kudo @mairacanal @lina @desttinghim I get that. honestly - it's wild how just about every time I talk about a subject like this people assume the same thing. It's incredibly rare for me to see someone disagree with statements I make like "people should behave" and not follow it up with some sort of assertion I'm new to this and simply Do Not Understand Complicated Kernel Development. @Conan_Kudo @Lyude @lina @desttinghim I don't think anyone had the intention to say that you don't have any knowledge about the kernel community. At least, on my side, I was just trying to say that we shouldn't generalize our personal experience and also, we usually have a hard time building constructive feedback when we say that the other part doesn't want to hear. We need to improve our community, but just pointing everything we do wrong makes it harder to open space for positive outcomes. |
Gregory's Server
@Conan_Kudo @Lyude @lina @desttinghim I believe that anything that is community driven and involves some many people ends up have some sort of sluggishness in the process.
For me, democracy ends up adding these long and painful transitions. We can see that in our Congress, where we do have leadership, but we don't have a dictator.
From what I see in the kernel, we do have leadership, but we don't have a "benevolent dictator" that points us to a single direction.