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Asahi Linya (朝日りにゃ〜)'s posts Post Back to profile
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Neal Gompa (ニール・ゴンパ) :fedora:

@mairacanal @Lyude @lina @desttinghim Maybe if there was some kind of even semi-formal decision-making and community engagement process for the kernel. Some kernel developers sometimes don't even like talking to each other, much less the people that try to use and contribute to it.

Most kernel subsystems fail the test for a structured subcommunity, so no I don't think they qualify.

30 August at 9:57 | Wall-to-wall | Open on fosstodon.org
8 comments
mairacanal

@Conan_Kudo @Lyude @lina @desttinghim I feel that saying that "Some kernel developers sometimes don't even like talking to each other, much less the people that try to use and contribute to it" isn't really helpful to create a nice relationship with kernel developers.

I also must point that this is your impression about kernel developers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't do a research between developers asking them those questions.

30 August at 17:33 | Open on fosstodon.org
mairacanal

@Conan_Kudo @Lyude @lina @desttinghim Usually, kernel developers (especially maintainers) are just trying to do their best in their limited time.

30 August at 17:34 | Open on fosstodon.org
Neal Gompa (ニール・ゴンパ) :fedora:

@mairacanal @Lyude @lina @desttinghim I spend a lot of time interacting with kernel developers, so I *do* know. Mostly I'm in storage stuff, but I do pop up in other places too.

I even have started going to Linux kernel conferences and engaging there. I was at the event that video referenced in the email that started this whole thing.

30 August at 17:48 | Open on fosstodon.org
Lyude🌹#BLM

@mairacanal @Conan_Kudo @lina @desttinghim I have to be honest I don't think it's unhelpful, either. FWIW too I'm a maintainer myself but like - frankly, I think there is a lot more damage to be done by treating this as a simple communication issue rather then a systemic issue with Linux kernel contributions that has been going on for a long time now. Most projects don't make the people contribute to them basically learn an entire new skillset just to have a technical conversation with a maintainer. And a lot of the time too you really are kind of at the mercy of how a kernel maintainer feels about your work, because there's not really anyone to hold anyone accountable for purposefully dismissive discussions.

@mairacanal @Conan_Kudo @lina @desttinghim I have to be honest I don't think it's unhelpful, either. FWIW too I'm a maintainer myself but like - frankly, I think there is a lot more damage to be done by treating this as a simple communication issue rather then a systemic issue with Linux kernel contributions that has been going on for a long time now. Most projects don't make the people contribute to them basically learn an entire new skillset just to have a technical conversation with a maintainer....

30 August at 19:17 | Open on queer.party
Lyude🌹#BLM

@mairacanal @Conan_Kudo @lina @desttinghim Even between kernel maintainers this has been a problem. I've had discussions with coworkers and associates that basically amounted to "we decided at some point X subsystem just literally doesn't work with us so we just avoid them now". If people who have been doing this for years, sometimes decades cannot even get their work through because of unhelpful discussions that are more about "I feel this way about your approach" rather than actual technical issues with merit - I gotta be honest, that's a problem.

@mairacanal @Conan_Kudo @lina @desttinghim Even between kernel maintainers this has been a problem. I've had discussions with coworkers and associates that basically amounted to "we decided at some point X subsystem just literally doesn't work with us so we just avoid them now". If people who have been doing this for years, sometimes decades cannot even get their work through because of unhelpful discussions that are more about "I feel this way about your approach" rather than actual technical issues...

30 August at 19:21 | Open on queer.party
Neal Gompa (ニール・ゴンパ) :fedora: replied to Lyude🌹#BLM

@Lyude @mairacanal @lina @desttinghim Frankly, I'm a bit insulted that the assumption was that I don't know anything about the Linux kernel community. I've been a known quantity in that area for almost a decade, and I've been heavily engaged in several areas over the last couple of years thanks to the Asahi Linux project.

What's frustrating is that this is a problem even when I engage with kernel developers who *already know* I have some know-how, but don't care and ignore my feedback anyway.

31 August at 0:44 | Open on fosstodon.org
Lyude🌹#BLM replied to Neal Gompa (ニール・ゴンパ) :fedora:

@Conan_Kudo @mairacanal @lina @desttinghim I get that. honestly - it's wild how just about every time I talk about a subject like this people assume the same thing. It's incredibly rare for me to see someone disagree with statements I make like "people should behave" and not follow it up with some sort of assertion I'm new to this and simply Do Not Understand Complicated Kernel Development.

31 August at 1:00 | Open on queer.party
mairacanal replied to Neal Gompa (ニール・ゴンパ) :fedora:

@Conan_Kudo @Lyude @lina @desttinghim I don't think anyone had the intention to say that you don't have any knowledge about the kernel community. At least, on my side, I was just trying to say that we shouldn't generalize our personal experience and also, we usually have a hard time building constructive feedback when we say that the other part doesn't want to hear.

We need to improve our community, but just pointing everything we do wrong makes it harder to open space for positive outcomes.

31 August at 1:00 | Open on fosstodon.org
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