Gregory's Server@mairacanal @Conan_Kudo @lina @desttinghim I have to be honest I don't think it's unhelpful, either. FWIW too I'm a maintainer myself but like - frankly, I think there is a lot more damage to be done by treating this as a simple communication issue rather then a systemic issue with Linux kernel contributions that has been going on for a long time now. Most projects don't make the people contribute to them basically learn an entire new skillset just to have a technical conversation with a maintainer. And a lot of the time too you really are kind of at the mercy of how a kernel maintainer feels about your work, because there's not really anyone to hold anyone accountable for purposefully dismissive discussions.
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 @Lyude @mairacanal @lina @desttinghim Frankly, I'm a bit insulted that the assumption was that I don't know anything about the Linux kernel community. I've been a known quantity in that area for almost a decade, and I've been heavily engaged in several areas over the last couple of years thanks to the Asahi Linux project. What's frustrating is that this is a problem even when I engage with kernel developers who *already know* I have some know-how, but don't care and ignore my feedback anyway. @Conan_Kudo @mairacanal @lina @desttinghim I get that. honestly - it's wild how just about every time I talk about a subject like this people assume the same thing. It's incredibly rare for me to see someone disagree with statements I make like "people should behave" and not follow it up with some sort of assertion I'm new to this and simply Do Not Understand Complicated Kernel Development. @Conan_Kudo @Lyude @lina @desttinghim I don't think anyone had the intention to say that you don't have any knowledge about the kernel community. At least, on my side, I was just trying to say that we shouldn't generalize our personal experience and also, we usually have a hard time building constructive feedback when we say that the other part doesn't want to hear. We need to improve our community, but just pointing everything we do wrong makes it harder to open space for positive outcomes. |
@mairacanal @Conan_Kudo @lina @desttinghim Even between kernel maintainers this has been a problem. I've had discussions with coworkers and associates that basically amounted to "we decided at some point X subsystem just literally doesn't work with us so we just avoid them now". If people who have been doing this for years, sometimes decades cannot even get their work through because of unhelpful discussions that are more about "I feel this way about your approach" rather than actual technical issues with merit - I gotta be honest, that's a problem.
@mairacanal @Conan_Kudo @lina @desttinghim Even between kernel maintainers this has been a problem. I've had discussions with coworkers and associates that basically amounted to "we decided at some point X subsystem just literally doesn't work with us so we just avoid them now". If people who have been doing this for years, sometimes decades cannot even get their work through because of unhelpful discussions that are more about "I feel this way about your approach" rather than actual technical issues...