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Fifi Lamoura

@kissane I think there are a couple of things...

Firstly, purity tests are an aspect of fascism, they're all about the individual subsuming and sacrificing themselves to an ideology or belief (usually that of the believer so it's making the other person subordinate and using the ideology as the lever to do so). It's not a coincidence that people who are judging others on these purist standards also see themselves as martyrs (and greatly underappreciated for their greatness). None of this is reasonable nor does it leave room for people to be human and imperfect. (We're all human and imperfect, even the people who believe themselves above all this.)

27 August at 19:16 | Wall-to-wall | Open on eldritch.cafe
18 comments
Fifi Lamoura

@kissane Secondly, there are also people who have a very hard time moving beyond binary good/bad thinking for reasons of nature/nurture and how their brain works. There's an aspect of splitting and projecting all bad onto others involved in this. But everyone can learn to move beyond binary thinking and it gets easier with practice (we can all use some practice doing this, our brains ARE wired for quick good/bad categorizations and quick reactions).

27 August at 19:19 | Open on eldritch.cafe
Juho Mäntysalo

@fifilamoura @kissane

I mean, purity is a thing about fascism, sure, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, purity is a thing that also happens when you have to protect your identity against majority.

That's how you get those flamboyant gays of 1980s, or vegans of the same period, or stop-oil -activists today. You either make yourself a caricature by demanding rights, or you stay in the closet.

(I can only think how many gotchas Thunberg gets for owning a phone, or using clothes, electricity etc).

27 August at 20:23 | Open on mastodon.social
Fifi Lamoura

@iju This is not how being flamboyantly gay works, firstly, and we weren't all purity testing each other before we engaged in activism. Purity tests are things usually used AGAINST activists for being humans living in the world and not saints (see the "gottchas" you listed, that wasn't environmentalists screaming about Thunberg being a person living in society with human needs). Back in the 80s we knew we were messy motherfuckers and we did our imperfect shit very imperfectly (in fact, that's the DIY mantra...just do shit and learn and adapt as you go). Also, purity is a religious idea and it's actually generally about projecting all of the shit one considers "bad" in oneself onto someone else so the person in question can feel like they're better than other people. It's bullshit, it's about the individual needing to disown part of themselves for some reason.

@kissane

@iju This is not how being flamboyantly gay works, firstly, and we weren't all purity testing each other before we engaged in activism. Purity tests are things usually used AGAINST activists for being humans living in the world and not saints (see the "gottchas" you listed, that wasn't environmentalists screaming about Thunberg being a person living in society with human needs). Back in the 80s we knew we were messy motherfuckers and we did our imperfect shit very imperfectly (in fact, that's the...

27 August at 20:29 | Open on eldritch.cafe
Juho Mäntysalo

@fifilamoura @kissane

Perhaps I used the wrong word, or wrong example. This isn't my first language, nor am I familiar with United States of today or or yesteryear (which I'm assuming you're contextualing my message to).

What I tried to say is that pushing new ideas as an activist involves being a caricature for various reasons: to draw attention, to set an example, to not be pushed aside when others ask you to take it down a notch for their convenience etc.

27 August at 20:33 | Open on mastodon.social
Juho Mäntysalo

@fifilamoura @kissane
2/2

In any case, this compelling to purity is something I've both seen and experienced, and have heard others mention.

In the spirit of trying to be constructive I'll add that there might be some other mechanisms for why vanguardianism (for lack or better word) so often tends to rise when pushing changes in society.

I've heard shouts* "if no one gets upset nothing's going to change" and people don't get upset by vegans who leave the steak on the plate..
_
* In 🇫🇮

@fifilamoura @kissane
2/2

In any case, this compelling to purity is something I've both seen and experienced, and have heard others mention.

In the spirit of trying to be constructive I'll add that there might be some other mechanisms for why vanguardianism (for lack or better word) so often tends to rise when pushing changes in society.

27 August at 20:44 | Open on mastodon.social
Fifi Lamoura

@iju Yeah but upsetting or shocking people into paying attention has nothing to do with "purity tests". Maybe you're misunderstanding what a purity test is? It's basically being a fundamentalist for whatever ideology it is you've decided is more important than actual people. @kissane

27 August at 22:04 | Open on eldritch.cafe
Juho Mäntysalo

@fifilamoura @kissane

Would an example of purity test to be like animal rights activist being barred from taking part "in the scene" for saying that they consider hunted meat to be ethical? Because I've been speaking in this context.

This happened to a friend of mine.

Edit: After reviewing the conversation: Or being pushed to eat meat because it's "not that bad" and "you don't want to make a scene"? In this case you either fold or make yourself a caricature.

27 August at 22:15 | Open on mastodon.social
Juho Mäntysalo

@fifilamoura @kissane

I'm not a historian of homosexual rights, and I feel a bit uncomfortable in speaking of these things in detail, but I understand that big part of gay rights was having it been accepted that being gay is normal.

And that in turn required mentioning you've being gay even when you could avoid doing so, thus breaking the idea of what's normal. This is what I meant when I said flamboyant. It might have been the wrong word, of which I apologize.

27 August at 22:21 | Open on mastodon.social
Fifi Lamoura replied to Juho

@iju I'm not here to educate you about the history of Gay and queer activism, there's plenty of documentation out there. I've shared my lived experience and yet you keep making claims based on your vague distant impressions of activists of all kinds so we're pretty much at an impasse. @kissane

27 August at 22:52 | Open on eldritch.cafe
Juho Mäntysalo replied to Fifi

@fifilamoura @kissane

You note that my argument wasn't about gays, but about activism and its costs.

Also that I repeatedly apologized of initially speaking of gays for various reasons, NOR did I want to argue about things where your lived experience and my limited book knowledge were from different continents and cultures.

I've tried to steer toward the basic hypothesis, but also wanted to create space for comparing our cultural differences as I wanted to hear your thoughts.

27 August at 23:04 | Open on mastodon.social
Fifi Lamoura

@iju I'm contextualizing to Canada and I assume you're talking about ACT UP and AIDS activism and activism against police brutality. And, no, pushing new ideas doesn't involve being a caricature. We were all busy being our queer selves and then we had to do activism because circumstances demanded it (and a lot of us worked in the arts, lots of straight acting Gay men were still in the closet in the 1980s so you didn't see them as much and so on). But, also, activism isn't just being out on the streets, it's also fighting things in court and creating supportive organizations and there are all kinds of people you don't see doing that work. Sure shock tactics were used to force the media and public to pay attention, that was a tactic among many tactics. I take it you haven't been engaged in much activism over your lifetime? @kissane

@iju I'm contextualizing to Canada and I assume you're talking about ACT UP and AIDS activism and activism against police brutality. And, no, pushing new ideas doesn't involve being a caricature. We were all busy being our queer selves and then we had to do activism because circumstances demanded it (and a lot of us worked in the arts, lots of straight acting Gay men were still in the closet in the 1980s so you didn't see them as much and so on). But, also, activism isn't just being out on the streets,...

27 August at 21:22 | Open on eldritch.cafe
Juho Mäntysalo

@fifilamoura @kissane

Afaik, ACT UP wasn't a thing hereabouts. AIDS was more or less seen as a problem for the public health care system, and that's how it was adressed. (This based on articles I've read -- I'm a bit too young to have lived this).

But as I said, using gays in this context might have been a mistake.

I've done activism.

Never been in the "vanguard", though. I do know people who I'd say are. But I don't keep my ideals close to chest in hope of normalisation.

27 August at 22:01 | Open on mastodon.social
Juho Mäntysalo

@fifilamoura @kissane

But speaking of gays and gay rights of 1980s, these are the photos that are popular here to memorise the time. I'd say it has some carnevalisation in there, wouldn't you? At least it's hard to do this in closet. And that's hard in a society like mine which was very homogenous.

They were intentionally breaking the law (by being seen and themselves), and thus making them open for jail.

And today Pride is all about carnevalisation, of course.
27 August at 22:11 | Open on mastodon.social
ig 🏳️‍🌈

@fifilamoura @kissane no doubt there are many things going on. but i think contemporary culture has brought out aspects of activism that are hyper-individualistic rather than community-focused - you see people performing these self-improvement projects like changing their diets, altering their vocabularies, and displaying only the correct opinions on social media, using an abstinence-based approach to becoming a Good Person. but with purity comes contempt for the people who fail those standards.

27 August at 20:52 | Open on mstdn.ca
ig 🏳️‍🌈

@fifilamoura @kissane what these people don't realize is that if the majority of humans fail your minimum standards of being a Good Person, you end up hating the human race - and your activism is no longer rooted in compassion, but contempt for the impure.

you can't claim to care about humanity while despising almost all of it. there has to be room for forgiveness of human failure.

27 August at 20:58 | Open on mstdn.ca
Fifi Lamoura

@ignova That's also about people just rule following rather than taking the time and space to understand why something is wrong/harmful/hurtful. They are more interested in how they look to other people, their image, than having personal integrity, their substance (words and actions aligning as much as possible). They are performing being a good person without going through any change or growth rather than doing the work to widen their understanding of themselves, others and the world. It's an authoritarian model of the world that they're working from at the outset, which is why it quickly becomes oppressive (to both them and others). @kissane

@ignova That's also about people just rule following rather than taking the time and space to understand why something is wrong/harmful/hurtful. They are more interested in how they look to other people, their image, than having personal integrity, their substance (words and actions aligning as much as possible). They are performing being a good person without going through any change or growth rather than doing the work to widen their understanding of themselves, others and the world. It's an authoritarian...

27 August at 21:10 | Open on eldritch.cafe
ig 🏳️‍🌈

@fifilamoura @kissane i agree. i also think this version of 'activism' appeals to certain people who don't have a strong sense of their own identity. it offers convenient identity badges that tell you who you are, so you can bypass the process of having to use your own insight to figure that out. then it provides a list of rules, and all you have to do to be a Good Person is follow the list, rather than thinking critically about what is the moral thing to do, or developing your own opinions.

27 August at 21:44 | Open on mstdn.ca
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