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Eugenia L

@nixCraft He didn't say to not teach kids math or science. He specifically said to not teach kids coding. I'm an ex-programmer myself, and I agree with him in this day and age.

"Teach your kids the skills they need to thrive."

Exactly. And that can't be done with coding in the age of AI. Not anymore. 20 years ago, yes, I'd say go for it. But not today.

Today, you need to pick careers that AI won't touch for another 20 years. After that time, all bets are off anyway, as robotics is coming too.

28 February at 13:24 | Wall-to-wall | Open on mastodon.social
31 comments
jsr_ffd2

@eugenialoli @nixCraft
Up to now I've only been able to let AI create small snips of usable programming code
Things like Hello world in m68 k assembly and things of that Nature

28 February at 13:31 | Open on botsin.space
Tobias Denkinger

@eugenialoli
The chief problem with code is not that it takes long to write, but that its quality is bad (and we therefore have to debug a lot). I can see how an LLM may be writing code faster. I don't see how an LLM can write better code. After all, the LLM learned to write code from examples of human code and has, in contrast to a human, no way of reflecting on what it has learned.
@nixCraft

28 February at 13:40 | Open on mastodontech.de
Tobias Denkinger

@eugenialoli
I believe we are close to what neural networks can do. We have been tinkering with them for the last 50+ years. In their current state they are not fit to replace a programmer. They probably never will be.

While there is a lot of other machine learning going on, this usually requires domain specific modelling. Such a model will be able to replace a programmer only after we have figured out how programming should actually be done.
@nixCraft

28 February at 13:47 | Open on mastodontech.de
Eugenia L

@denki @nixCraft AI is with us since the mid-60s, yes. But AI has not yet reached its limits. It started slowly, and it's now on an exponential curve. We are NOT close to what neural networks can do. We're are the beginning of the exponential curve.

28 February at 13:49 | Open on mastodon.social
Tobias Denkinger

@eugenialoli
I was specifically talking about LLMs and neural networks, not AI in general.
@nixCraft

28 February at 13:53 | Open on mastodontech.de
Eugenia L

@denki @nixCraft the market will use any tool in its disposal to further its goals.

28 February at 13:55 | Open on mastodon.social
crazyeddie

@denki @eugenialoli @nixCraft And the code models are trained on stackoverflow answers so... yeah.

28 February at 14:51 | Open on mastodon.social
Eugenia L

@denki @nixCraft Only a few software houses will care about "better" code, most would care about "faster-written" code. That way, they can reduce costs. This alone, makes the chance of someone young getting employed very slim, making the advice of "don't become a coder in the age of AI", a sound advice. You can still learn to code for fun, sure. But not to make a good buck.

28 February at 13:48 | Open on mastodon.social
Ariaflame

@eugenialoli @denki @nixCraft So it can fail faster. You do however need to know the basics of code to become a debugger, and those I suspect will be in demand.

28 February at 13:50 | Open on masto.ai
Eugenia L

@ariaflame @denki @nixCraft Look at the state of modern furniture, household devices, clothes. Their quality is a far cry from the stuff you could buy in the 1970s. And yet, no one cares, everything is replaceable now, a commodity. Apart from some important code for banks/taxes/etc which will employ humans, all the other "apps" would be low quality AI code. They will fail often, and no one will care. People will move on.

28 February at 13:52 | Open on mastodon.social
Ariaflame
Eugenia L

@ariaflame @denki @nixCraft It's not cynicism, it's objectivity. I'm old enough to remember the washing machine of my ex-mother in law, that she bought in Germany in 1963, and she still had it working until the mid-2000s. That's durability that is currently not built in to ANYTHING these days. Why would consumer apps be any different? Capitalism always strives to commodify everything, so it creates sizable markets with low entry point. That's how it "grows". It's not good, but it's what it is.

28 February at 14:04 | Open on mastodon.social
phi1997
Eugenia L

@phi1997 @ariaflame Maybe you're right. Diogenes has always been my favorite philosopher. He told it like he saw it.

28 February at 15:45 | Open on mastodon.social
Ariaflame

@eugenialoli @denki @nixCraft Besides, learning coding isn't just about being a coder. It's about learning to problem solve, to break down a problem into pieces so small even a computer can understand them. At which point hopefully you do to.

28 February at 13:51 | Open on masto.ai
Eugenia L

@ariaflame @denki @nixCraft Yes, as I wrote in the thread, learning to code for fun, is fine. But not to create a career that would give you the money you could make if you were born 20 years earlier. These days are gone, forever. The programmer as a sure fire professional with lots, LOTS of money per year, is gone.

28 February at 13:53 | Open on mastodon.social
Ariaflame

@eugenialoli @denki @nixCraft Most of the tools I'm using these days in my work didn't exist until I was in postgraduate study. I'm not sure that all programmers made lots of money anyway. People will adapt.

28 February at 13:57 | Open on masto.ai
Eugenia L

@ariaflame @denki @nixCraft You can only adapt around tools that allow you to manipulate the tool in different directions. That's how you "adapt". AI does not allow you to do that. I estimate that eventually, within the next 30-40 years, AI will be having 85% of all jobs. Only a 15% of the population, the "overseeers", will have an actual job.

28 February at 14:01 | Open on mastodon.social
Ariaflame

@eugenialoli @denki @nixCraft I think you're overestimating AI's abilities.

28 February at 14:14 | Open on masto.ai
Tobias Denkinger

@eugenialoli
Writing worse code faster is cheaper only in the short term. It produces technical debt that will have to be paid later. Many managers don't care about that because the problem is not big enough with human programmers that care about their craft. The problem will, however, become big enough to care once AI produces enough code.
@nixCraft

28 February at 13:52 | Open on mastodontech.de
Eugenia L

@denki @nixCraft I replied on this in the thread elsewhere. Some crucial code will use humans. The majority will just use low quality AI code. Because it'd be commodified to pieces.

28 February at 13:55 | Open on mastodon.social
Fish Id Wardrobe

@eugenialoli @denki @nixCraft That ... wouldn't help. A bug in *any* of the code can be disastrous. It *all* has to be free of (serious) bugs.

28 February at 19:13 | Open on social.tchncs.de
crazyeddie

@eugenialoli @nixCraft Even if AI could be expected to totally replace every software engineer in the workforce it's still a valuable skill as it teaches different ways to think. If we were to stop educating kids in fields we anticipate AI could do 100% then we'd end up not teaching them anything.

And AI is just nowhere near being able to do that.

28 February at 14:49 | Open on mastodon.social
Peter Butler

@eugenialoli @nixCraft but there’s a difference between “don’t make computer science your only focus” and “don’t teach your kids to code”

There’s much value in learning to program software even if it becomes much less lucrative as a career

28 February at 15:05 | Open on mas.to
Eugenia L

@peterbutler @nixCraft This was cleared up in the discussion tree. Besides, the nvidia guy surely he meant it as a career, not as a hobby.

28 February at 15:07 | Open on mastodon.social
Fish Id Wardrobe

@eugenialoli @peterbutler @nixCraft FYI: no-one here can see the whole "discussion tree". A drawback of the distributed nature of the fediverse.

28 February at 19:16 | Open on social.tchncs.de
DelRider

@eugenialoli @nixCraft I heard it said, focus your career on something you have to lay your hands upon. If your job can be done on a computer in your basement, it can be done in someone else's basement on the other side of the planet. Don't want to pay a plumber to take the job? Fine, clean out your own pipes.

28 February at 15:15 | Open on social.vivaldi.net
Joel Falcou, Ph. D

@eugenialoli @nixCraft except currently AI is a stochastic parrot spouting crap 99% of the time.

AI don't create or understand it just do ugly copypasta of code written.by someone else.

28 February at 16:47 | Open on mastodon.social
Jason Kraus

@eugenialoli @nixCraft wish they'd work on automating executive roles as hard as they work on putting artists, writers, videographers, receptionists, and programmers out of work.

28 February at 16:58 | Open on social.rootaccess.org
surfingreg

@eugenialoli @nixCraft Someone will need to pilot the Nebuchadnezzar.

28 February at 16:58 | Open on fosstodon.org
Fish Id Wardrobe

@eugenialoli @nixCraft So-called "AI" will be dead within two years -- at least as the miracle thing that will replace coding (helpdesks / artists/ animators / plumbers / whatever). It's a grift. It can't think or learn, and it can't get better at these things without starting again from scratch. Those that say otherwise are selling something.

It does have some value as brainstorming tool -- or anywhere else where it doesn't have to be 100% right.

28 February at 18:38 | Open on social.tchncs.de
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