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Top-level
@dangillmor I support the assistance that the west has given Ukraine to prevent the entire country from being taken over by Russia. But I do not support Ukraine's efforts to regain all the territory it had in 1991. The eastern part of that - the area currently occupied by Russia contains many people opposing the Kiev government, seen as forcing Ukrainian language and culture on them. If Ukraine succeeds in pushing into these areas, it will not be liberating them. We need a ceasefire. 14 comments
@AlfNoProblem @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor nope you only embolden russia and give them time to replenish and then they start all over again on some other new lie russian imperialism understands only one thing: defeat. anything else they consider weakness and reason to keep going again you do not understand russia. there will be no peace if they gain anything @AlfNoProblem @dangillmor It's so sad the way people can be made to hate. This war seems pretty stale-mated right now. My guess is that it could continue for a long time and wind up with a line about where it is now when both sides have lost so many people that they finally decide to stop. Why not stop now? @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor in 1991 the regions you cite voted to be ukrainian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum when they "revolted" in 2014 it was via russian military infiltration don't believe the russian lies. "oppressed minorities" is a standard imperialist trick the donbas is ukrainian by law. it is only in russian hands because of force. this can never be respected, or you wish to plunge the world into war on the premise of respecting imperialist lies @accretionist @dangillmor That's 1991. People change their minds. Ukrainian governments after independence were very co-operative with Russia. That changed in 2014, when much of the country chose a more western-oriented government. But enough people in the east of the country did not agree with that change to start a separatist revolt. While that revolt obviously had support from Moscow, I am sure that it was largely home-grown. @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor No way. Any ceasefire would mean giving Putin time to relax and regroup before attacking again. We need the end of the war. And the only end that I can see is Russia losing the war. Which, yes, means returning to 1991 borders. @Paul_Friesen Sorry but you’re promoting lies. Speaking russian was not only always fine in Ukraine (and still is) but unfortunately it’s the most used language in every day life. I get the ideas that it’s dumb to try to return these territories with all the defense russia has managed to build there but your take is just not true. And “forcing Ukrainian culture” - can you tell me in which way? It was always an underdog with systematic soviet oppression @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor You mean you needed to flaunt that you really don't have any clue? The reality is that the absolute most people still in that area, or who fled the area, want to be part of Ukraine! @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor And as for language, there used to be a line roughly from Kyiv to Odeca where on the East Russian was the default language, while on the West it was Ukrainian (after the fall of the USSR). On the East side it is now changing to more Ukrainian, and that is by choice. Previously both languages were the official languages of the country!  @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor that's an insult to the thousands of Ukrainians from Donetsk and Luhansk currently trying to retake their homeland. If you genuinely believe Donetsk and Luhansk want to be part of Russian then I'm afraid you've drunk the Russian cool aid. @jmaris There's obviously a lot of propaganda around. But it comes from both sides! Don't believe everything you hear in the Western press, either. I'm sure there are people from Donetsk and Luhansk who support Ukraine and fight for it. But I am also sure there are people there supporting the Russian side. That's what war does. It turns people against each other. @Paul_Friesen I'm asking you to listen to the Russians who were sent to stir up trouble in Donbas, who explicitly stated there would have been no "revolt" if they weren't there. For my part, I prefer to listen to my friends from Donbas who were expelled from their homes by Girkin's little green men. @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor I guess you missed the 1991 referendum outcome? There was literally *no region* hoping to stay with Russia, not even Krimea. Even most of the Russian speaking minority in Ukraine preferred a separate country. Let us never support a country that invades a neighbor, not even if they pretend that they are saving some of their 'own'.. |
Gregory's Server
@Paul_Friesen @dangillmor I am with you, Paul. Bunch of folks posting inspirationally and feeling self-righteous. I believe you've got the right idea. Stop fighting today and start talking. Peace!