Gregory's ServerHistorian Timothy Snyder asks us -- all of us -- if we understand the whirlwind we are going to reap if we sell out Ukraine. https://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/23878
Everything will get worse if this happens. Everything.
 28 comments
 @dangillmor The Baltic states know. So do the low countries. If, however, you dislike representative democracy (as so many of our theocrats do), then it's not a bug, it's a feature. @dangillmor I support the assistance that the west has given Ukraine to prevent the entire country from being taken over by Russia. But I do not support Ukraine's efforts to regain all the territory it had in 1991. The eastern part of that - the area currently occupied by Russia contains many people opposing the Kiev government, seen as forcing Ukrainian language and culture on them. If Ukraine succeeds in pushing into these areas, it will not be liberating them. We need a ceasefire. @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor I am with you, Paul. Bunch of folks posting inspirationally and feeling self-righteous. I believe you've got the right idea. Stop fighting today and start talking. Peace! @AlfNoProblem @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor nope you only embolden russia and give them time to replenish and then they start all over again on some other new lie russian imperialism understands only one thing: defeat. anything else they consider weakness and reason to keep going again you do not understand russia. there will be no peace if they gain anything @AlfNoProblem @dangillmor It's so sad the way people can be made to hate. This war seems pretty stale-mated right now. My guess is that it could continue for a long time and wind up with a line about where it is now when both sides have lost so many people that they finally decide to stop. Why not stop now? @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor in 1991 the regions you cite voted to be ukrainian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum when they "revolted" in 2014 it was via russian military infiltration don't believe the russian lies. "oppressed minorities" is a standard imperialist trick the donbas is ukrainian by law. it is only in russian hands because of force. this can never be respected, or you wish to plunge the world into war on the premise of respecting imperialist lies @accretionist @dangillmor That's 1991. People change their minds. Ukrainian governments after independence were very co-operative with Russia. That changed in 2014, when much of the country chose a more western-oriented government. But enough people in the east of the country did not agree with that change to start a separatist revolt. While that revolt obviously had support from Moscow, I am sure that it was largely home-grown. @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor No way. Any ceasefire would mean giving Putin time to relax and regroup before attacking again. We need the end of the war. And the only end that I can see is Russia losing the war. Which, yes, means returning to 1991 borders. @Paul_Friesen Sorry but you’re promoting lies. Speaking russian was not only always fine in Ukraine (and still is) but unfortunately it’s the most used language in every day life. I get the ideas that it’s dumb to try to return these territories with all the defense russia has managed to build there but your take is just not true. And “forcing Ukrainian culture” - can you tell me in which way? It was always an underdog with systematic soviet oppression @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor You mean you needed to flaunt that you really don't have any clue? The reality is that the absolute most people still in that area, or who fled the area, want to be part of Ukraine! @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor And as for language, there used to be a line roughly from Kyiv to Odeca where on the East Russian was the default language, while on the West it was Ukrainian (after the fall of the USSR). On the East side it is now changing to more Ukrainian, and that is by choice. Previously both languages were the official languages of the country!  @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor that's an insult to the thousands of Ukrainians from Donetsk and Luhansk currently trying to retake their homeland. If you genuinely believe Donetsk and Luhansk want to be part of Russian then I'm afraid you've drunk the Russian cool aid. @jmaris There's obviously a lot of propaganda around. But it comes from both sides! Don't believe everything you hear in the Western press, either. I'm sure there are people from Donetsk and Luhansk who support Ukraine and fight for it. But I am also sure there are people there supporting the Russian side. That's what war does. It turns people against each other. @Paul_Friesen I'm asking you to listen to the Russians who were sent to stir up trouble in Donbas, who explicitly stated there would have been no "revolt" if they weren't there. For my part, I prefer to listen to my friends from Donbas who were expelled from their homes by Girkin's little green men. @Paul_Friesen @dangillmor I guess you missed the 1991 referendum outcome? There was literally *no region* hoping to stay with Russia, not even Krimea. Even most of the Russian speaking minority in Ukraine preferred a separate country. Let us never support a country that invades a neighbor, not even if they pretend that they are saving some of their 'own'..  @dangillmor No construction of American interests has anything to do with it. The Speaker of the House is a paid Russian agent. So are other representatives. Their job—for a boss who does not accept excuses—is to stop American support to Ukraine. They're going to produce rationalizations, but those don't mean anything. It's been time to deal with things as they are for awhile. @dangillmor Putin invaded Ukraine and is getting his ass kicked. Putin invaded the Republican Party and they rolled right over. Tells you everything you need to know about those who talk tough but are, in reality, spineless, gutless weaklings. @dangillmor the answer is: one more war ended, lots of lives saved. The war can end any time Putin wants it to. Ceasefire, as is being called for by Paul Friesen (the Russian troll above - blocked and reported) is a win for Russia. Then Russia will move on to the next target. @Izzy_A @dangillmor if russia gains anything, they rest, replenish, and start again on a new lie to have peace russian imperialism must be defeated. that is the only path to peace. everything else they consider weakness and nobody is telling ukrainians to fight except ukrainians and nobody is spilling ukrainian blood except russia @Izzy_A @dangillmor When is the financial cost to the western nations such as America too much to prop up Ukraine. ? When their currency is devalued ? When their credit score drops ? I don't know and not saying I do. @violinguy @dangillmor what was the American financial cost of the Marshall Plan after WWII? whatever it was, the immense, immense economic and security gain is priceless so it is with any money the USA spends on Ukraine Presently the financial cost to the West is a fraction of what Russia is paying (in the ratio of about 2 to 15), and Russia is only as rich as Italy, nothing compared to the West. Should Russia succeed, it will absorb the human and material assets of Ukraine before attacking NATO. The West would then pay a much much greater financial cost, and start to pay the cost in blood now being paid by only Ukraine.  |
@dangillmor Terrific polemic. Defending (with money and weapons, not lives) Ukraine is the greatest bargain we'll ever have.