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Top-level
@redford and @mrtick held an unrecorded talk a bout this at OhMyHack in Warsaw - I unfortunately couldn't make it because of Munich snow. For now this is making the rounds in Polish-speaking sources, but we do have a talk scheduled about this at 37C3, in which we plan to do a deep dive into this and actually publish our findings. @zaufanatrzeciastrona 's article about this: https://zaufanatrzeciastrona.pl/post/o-trzech-takich-co-zhakowali-prawdziwy-pociag-a-nawet-30-pociagow/ 103 comments
@Ifrauding @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona thank you +1 Agree. The economic impact of people who do things, not because of economics, but because they should be done, cannot be overstated. Thank you! @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona is anyone getting sued at least? Because this is ridiculously anticompetitive behaviour.  @AlgorithmWolf @AlgorithmWolf @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona unfortunately, it is usually the security expert detecting the issue, or the whistleblowers who get sued…  @AlgorithmWolf @dukp @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona Yes, the manufacturer should be excluded from EU contracts for the next 10 years. @UlrikNyman @AlgorithmWolf @dukp @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona - was Volkswagen crippled or excluded from the EU contracts after they cheated on pollution tests? @tom_andraszek @AlgorithmWolf @dukp @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona No. I am only saying what I think would be a fair consequence. @AlgorithmWolf - the US fined Volkswagen, the EU did not "cripple" Volkswagen or exclude them from contracts, as far as I know. Whoever did this at Newag needs to be charged and servicing companies and customers need to be compensated for the loss of revenue. I wonder if making programmers go through certification/registration process like engineers would limit unethical behaviour. If a programmer was personally responsible for the damage their code does, through negligence or international. @tom_andraszek https://www.ft.com/content/0c594b02-6f91-4b9d-bab7-11992f116316 Yes it did. Do you not really think being forced to recall (and fix for free) potentially hundreds of thousands of cars is a punishment? VW made zero money from it, and all their customers now have a less powerful engine.  @AlgorithmWolf @dukp @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona they're going to lose so many contract bids from this (this happened to transit companies who delivered substandard busses).
https://www.nytimes.com/1984/02/08/nyregion/all-grumman-buses-to-be-put-off-streets-in-city-permanently.html @AlgorithmWolf @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona So far, the Polish Railway Transport Authority said that it is a matter for a civil dispute between the purchaser and the manufacturer and is washing its hands of it, but the news only broke, I really hope someone goes to jail pour encourager les autres. @Leszek_Karlik It feels a little bit like when VW had its cars detect whether they are on a test stand or not. I wonder if in this case the higher-ups will also pretend that they knew nothing about this code.  @AlgorithmWolf @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona it looks worse to me, it looks like they deliberately sabotaged the operation of public transportation vehicles. I hope it gets elevated to a criminal offense, this is worse than if a passenger got in a train and disabled it, which they would definitely go to jail for.
@AlgorithmWolf @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona Bordering on sabotage, methinks.   @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona Is that a hack... or something put in place by company or its contractors? Your post said 3rd party? Is that to mean they were using cheaper service providers? ---  @JohnJBurnsIII "3rd party repair" it means mostly - independent from manufacturer but doing all stuff provided by law and using certified materials, parts and so on... Thank you. Still feels like it should not have been part of operational code in the system. To easy to abuse.  @JohnJBurnsIII @wikiyu I don't think there is any scenario where the described functionality isn't abuse, the only purpose for that code is abuse and I hope it's illegal, against the contract, and the purchaser can throw the law book at them and get real consequences including jail time for the executives who ordered this or knew about it. I'm probably going to be disappointed in the outcome, but jeez that is some shit behavior when you already sold a fricken *train* at a profit  @JohnJBurnsIII @q3k it reads to me as "DRM to ensure that orgs who bought the trains were only using maintenance contractors authorised by the manufacturer" and I'm pretty sure that there's regulation against that kind of thing in other vehicles (cars, say) @outie @JohnJBurnsIII @q3k yeah, I think you're missing the story here, John. It's the train manufacturer doing very sketchy stuff to try and prevent operators from having them maintained anywhere but their shops. Like if your car maker slipped some bogus code in that made your car refuse to start if you had it serviced at the local garage. Or your phone manufacturer doing the same, ahem, Apple. OH. OK. Yes... I did not pick up it was OEM code. This sounds like HP locking down their printers to only use ORM replacement cartridges. Or Keurig doing similar for coffee pods.  @JohnJBurnsIII @adamw @outie @q3k Except this is like HP printers *pretending* they're out of ink when they're not, while warning you that only HP cartridges will work. 🤔 And given you can't really see into those cartridges - I think I would not be surprised that is not the case. I dumped my not quite 2 year old OfficeJet in 2012 - for repeated error codes no matter how many OEM new cartridges I stuck in there. In the end... >$100 in unused cartridges. Happily using Epson since then... so 11 years of use and no repairs needed. Does what I need (rarely print, but need it when I need it).  @JohnJBurnsIII @adamw @outie @q3k Both of which are also terrible and should be illegal, but definitely not on the same scale of badness as being able to REMOTELY DISABLE A PASSENGER VEHICLE!  @adamw @outie @JohnJBurnsIII @q3k And now let's see what @EU_Commission will do about that. It's good to mention, that for the anticompetitive behaviour (and worse) they can fine the manufacturer up to 10% of their worldwide turnover (not profit, turnover). @adamw @outie @JohnJBurnsIII @q3k checking against a blacklist of the GPS coordinates of third party repair shops is really out there compared to previously known hardware DRM shenanigans. what were the managers who authorised that thinking?! let's hope such examples lead to vigorous change in legislation. never thought we'd need "right to repair" for effing trains! @outie @JohnJBurnsIII @q3k @mral @outie @JohnJBurnsIII @q3k Hold yer horses there buckaroo. Don't try to threaten me with the one GOOD outcome scenario... @apressler @outie @JohnJBurnsIII @q3k @mral @apressler @outie @JohnJBurnsIII @q3k I'm sure there are ways to detect if you was just passing somebody or if you were speeding. @mral @outie @JohnJBurnsIII @q3k Such a method as proposed is frankly stupid since it only punishes after the fact and preventing speeding is the desirable goal. A mandatory geo-gated speed limiter on all motor vehicles would be much more efficient and effective solution. But if fines after the fact are all that are on offer, then yes. Give it to me. But not for you, of course. You are special and deserve to be treated as such. I think you should be given lights and a siren. @SuperMoosie If the 3rd party workshop is unequipped to deal with the safety systems, which might mean loosing safety certification, then that is for actual authorities to decide and enforce  @SuperMoosie @outie @JohnJBurnsIII @q3k this not some random dude servicing the train. It's a train service yard with huge infrastructure and a huge contract. In this story they describe going through the huge maintenance manual and finding no mention of these things. If it's a certification thing then it should clearly state this.  @q3k That's terrifying! Thank you for sharing (once it was declassified!) 🙀 @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona  @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona Wow. That's a talk I'll be looking out for on media.c3! Sounds like they were taking a leaves out of John Deere and Apple's books. Hopefully it leads to a harsh lesson for NEWAG. @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona At what point do people call this kind of stuff a protection racket?  @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona Very impressive work. Congratulations! I understand there´s no write-up of this available in English at this point? That would be great... @slothrop @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona We'll release a full writeup as part of our 37C3 talk. It's a lot of work to gather all the data :). @slothrop @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona I let Edge translate the Polish article to English and it was very readable (machine translation has come a long way...). DeepL or Google Translate will most likely also work very well.  @AUROnline sidenote: Firefox translations has a privacy-first local translation feature which works in your browser and works quite good, so you can use that too.  Ugh. This gross, abusive violation of social contract brings Unauthorized Bread to mind: @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona @kkarhan @raulinbonn @yacc143 @muiiio   @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona fascinating work! looking forward to the talk  @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona Dang, that really should be straight up illegal... @gudenau @beekir @q3k @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona > timers are a legitimate thing for some maintenance items Not if they don't reset after that maintenance ;)  @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona > Niestety pociąg, którym badacz podąża do serwisu, spóźnia się. @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona Holymoly! 😮 I am really looking forward to this talk now! 🚃🔒 @q3k did you update the software to rerun the train on your own or Newag was forced to do it ? @stansobczyk @q3k No, we found a way to reset the locks without modifying the software :)  @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona wow!!!! amazing to have caught them doing this. GOOD JOB on the research. @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona wow cool, is not that anti-competitive behaviour somehow and likely illegal? I hope it is… I mean did you somehow report it or so?  Sounds a lot like I found the first first entry to my #37c3 schedule! Looking forward to it 🤩@q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona impressive research, good job. And scary that someone would actually code this into a train system..... It seems EU will have field day on rails. Polish police/security service maybe will have field day too: isn't NEWAG related to russian oligarchs or FSB, what if Putin himself will lock trains. Fun begins.  @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona some gas boilers are programmed to stop working. If you don’t have them maintained every six months.  @q3k Thank you for doing good work exposing this awful practice, I hope Newag and other manufacturers who try to pull this stunt go under @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona Well this is some next level shitty behavior... I can't imagine any rail operator buying from this company ever again... Such behavior should be punished with market impact that threatens the company doing it, otherwise it will only grow. Can't wait to see the talk! @q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona Absolutely astounding work. Top stuff. If your talk at 37C3 is recorded, uploaded and (selfishly) in english, please toot about it! I'm keen to hear the details. You're famous now 😁 someone mentions about that "case" in YouTube video. Im proud that someone(you and your friends I guess) gives them(a Polish National company) a middle finger. |
Gregory's Server
@q3k @redford @mrtick @zaufanatrzeciastrona
A talk which takes the #37c3 motto "unlocked" literally. 🤯