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Olu

In case there are any obvious conclusions I'm missing:

What do people think the biggest lessons from the history of the web are? What do you hope "comes back", what are you hoping stays dead, and what do you hope is to come?

I'd appreciate RTs (and long detailed replies lol)!

32 comments
Brian Fenton

@oluOnline I really miss when RSS was prominent and well-supported. You could subscribe to sites and their content came to you, generally in a focused/ad-free way too

Social bookmarking was a thing too... people would share their bookmarks and organize little communities around shared interests/interesting people

Sten the Sten

@brianfenton

@oluOnline

+1 to this. I feel like 2000-ish was the best of the Web. It certainly had lots of problems (very similar ones to current Mastodon....) but the balance between being able to find things with a search, stumble across things or go down hyperlink ratholes balanced the best against ads/spyware/assorted nastiness.

Stumbleupon, del.icio.us, google in their don't-be-evil days were pretty spectacular.

Brian Fenton

@thatsten @oluOnline yeah as long as you knew not to install Banzai Buddy you were largely OK 😆

AlgoCompSynth by znmeb

@thatsten @brianfenton @oluOnline

What do I wish would come back?

1. All sites - every last one of them - working with Lynx.
2. Plain text email the standard with no tracking!
3. View Source!!!!!!

Richard

@brianfenton @oluOnline The latter was Google+. Circles and sharing of circles.

Mage 🏳️‍🌈

@oluOnline I've been in the web for 23 years (!) and my biggest lesson is : almost nothing lasts except Wikimedia projects and what you build yourself.

Everything for-profit has an expiration date

maya 🎃

@oluOnline the default atom on the amateur internet was, at one point, a project rather than a profile. even when these projects sprawl and cannot help but reflect the self, I think it’s a healthier approach.

maya 🎃

@oluOnline you’ve probably come across Olia Lialina and I don’t think I mean what I’m saying here quite as strongly as she lays it out in interfacecritique.net/book/oli but that’s my approximate direction

Sven Slootweg

@oluOnline Kind of related to my other comment about Clubs.nl, one thing I noticed very early on was that social interaction started getting worse as soon as everything started revolving around *individuals*.

Early 'mass social media' here in NL (Clubs, Partyflock, etc.) were primarily based around communities, events, and so on - you'd have a profile, but it was more a technicality than anything, and didn't contain much more than a display name and maybe an avatar and "things you've posted to".

Once what I'll call "ego-oriented" social media started catching on (that started with Hyves here, Facebook only came later and MySpace was a small player), there was a noticeable shift of the online social vibe towards bragging, making yourself look good, and generally individualism.

I learned an important lesson from that; for social media to be genuinely social, it should revolve around community, and not around individuals.

In the two decades since, I've only seen evidence for that piling up higher and higher, and thankfully the more community-oriented approach is starting to come back a little in places like fedi.

@oluOnline Kind of related to my other comment about Clubs.nl, one thing I noticed very early on was that social interaction started getting worse as soon as everything started revolving around *individuals*.

Early 'mass social media' here in NL (Clubs, Partyflock, etc.) were primarily based around communities, events, and so on - you'd have a profile, but it was more a technicality than anything, and didn't contain much more than a display name and maybe an avatar and "things you've posted to".

Cotopaxi

@oluOnline Biggest lesson: The Internet, by itself, is neither good or bad. It's a tool. Our use of it to accomplish good or evil reflects who we choose to be as individuals and groups.
What I miss: The weirdly comforting, musical Grrrroooonksqueeeeeeeeeeebooshbooshbooshbonk of connecting over dial-up.
What I wish would come back: Don't know. Never think about it.
The future: I just hope we have one, things are getting so real and scary out there.

malte

@oluOnline i think websites should just be html+css, and simple enough that people can learn from each others websites, and if there is a need to execute code there should be a dedicated app that one can install for that purpose.

the tendency to add complexity to make things more appealing/accessible is self-defeating and exhausting (for me at least).

and i'd hope that browsers would come with pretty default styling, so people wouldn't reinvent the wheel there, too.

Vivien the Trumpeting Elephant

@malte @oluOnline HTML5 with its semantic tags is quite good. You can sometimes get away with pure HTML, with no CSS at all, if the client uses the Reader Mode.

pk

@oluOnline@social.gfsc.studio I think it goes without saying that the web, for all of its advancements, has brought upon more failures than what should be acceptable from an invention that is now universal among most of the population. The fact that the motto 'move fast and break things' was considered gospel for so many years among wannabe tech entrepreneurs is more than indicitive of that sentiment. The rise of companion technology that serves no purpose other than to enforce copyright (DRM, Manifest V3, Web Environment Integrity, etc.) has also always been completely incoherent to me, especially in an era where copying is now a rite of passage. Clearly, rights holders haven't learned shit from Napster.

> What do you hope "comes back"/what do you hope is to come?

I miss the days when the web was simpler. When people just wrote, and that was the end of it. Standards like RSS was a perfect compliment to that, and helped usher in an era of legitimate decentralization that I don't think has ever been done before. Ultimately, though, something like RSS couldn't really keep up with the ever-evolving idea of how people engage with content on the web--how could something like liking or commenting on a post really be expressed elegantly through something like RSS? By the end of the mid-2010s, RSS was basically dead, and although a light revival has come in the last couple of years, it's mostly a trivial advancement in my opinion. ActivityPub has done a lot for being the closest thing to bringing decentralization to social media again, but I doubt it'll ever reach the wide levels of adoption that RSS did at it's height. Such a shame, really.

If we're lucky, that idea of legitimate decentralization will come back. It's something of a pipe dream, but it's still a hope for me nevertheless.

> what are you hoping stays dead

Web3, or to be more specific, 'blockchain over HTTP'. A needless, stupid idea from the start that was only seen as innovative by people who had no idea what the hell they were talking about, and built by people had no clue of the implications of what building the 'latest and greatest' social media platform on top of the digital equivalent of bank statements was. Most of the grifters there have thankfully moved onto AI shit--not a big improvement, but it could be far worse, I guess.

@oluOnline@social.gfsc.studio I think it goes without saying that the web, for all of its advancements, has brought upon more failures than what should be acceptable from an invention that is now universal among most of the population. The fact that the motto 'move fast and break things' was considered gospel for so many years among wannabe tech entrepreneurs is more than indicitive of that sentiment. The rise of companion technology that serves no purpose other than to enforce copyright (DRM, Manifest...

LovesTha🥧

@oluOnline dominant players in any market are bad for everyone.

Dominating search leads to every webpage hyper optimising to get clicks.

Dominating social leads to misinformation and violence.

Etc.

And while these effects are accentuated due to profit motives their genesis is in market dominance not capitalism.

Decentralised technologies are the answer.

Adrian Cochrane

@oluOnline Another huge fan of RSS/Atom here! It never went away, but I wish browsers would promote this superb web feature again!

I think I recall there used to be a bigger emphasis on sharing interesting information, building sites for particular topics the author was interested in. I love when I still find that!

The Pixollieverse! Disco

@oluOnline my biggest lesson is that so much of it is owed to QTBIPOC folx, yet it is dominated by cishet abled white folx who are just looking to profit. If they weren't the decision makers who forced their way into power, the internet would look so much different in terms of ownership, sharing information, or the languages we use. Marginalized folx do make spaces for people like us on small pockets of the web, but the mainstream infrastructure isn't designed for us.

Risotto

@oluOnline I hope that one day communities beat SEO junk articles and big data

DELETED

@oluOnline The thing I miss most is the point about RSS, but more generalized: open protocols. Not just stuff delivered over HTTP/HTTPS, but gopher and telnet and and usenet and IRC (all still around but not nearly as popular as they once were) and every other protocol that's disappeared because of the commercial success of the web.

You can (and indeed have to) use your own client for all of those protocols. Instead of getting a universal(ly awful) client from a major tech company, you'd download a program from Usenet or a university's server. You could understand it, you could patch it, and people did.

The web, meanwhile, has become so extraordinarily overcomplicated that no one person can understand it. You need teams of senior full-time developers to work on a single browser. The web is not comprehensible in the way these old protocols were. A motivated high school student could hack together a client or server for one of these over the summer.

The biggest lesson is, in short, capitalism bad. The thing I miss most is the emphasis on text; so much of the modern web is image / video culture which prioritizes shallow, passive reactions rather than meaningful thought.

@oluOnline The thing I miss most is the point about RSS, but more generalized: open protocols. Not just stuff delivered over HTTP/HTTPS, but gopher and telnet and and usenet and IRC (all still around but not nearly as popular as they once were) and every other protocol that's disappeared because of the commercial success of the web.

DELETED

@luna Agreed on all points! I would like it if Gopher made a comeback. I dither on whether I would move my blog over to Gopher, even, so I don't know how committed I am to that.

I would love to see Usenet or something like it be a thing. (Forums aren't the same -- they're not federated, of course.) I can still run an NNTP server, and I'm strongly considering it again (save for the obvious "three people will use it, and eventually go away because only three people are using it" issue).

I mean, I think that's the thing that really drove the web -- the promise of one client program for everything. They started off bare-bones before that notion came about. After the notion started, web browsers began feature-bloating, trying to win users over to their ecosystem. Modern browsers by contemporary companies serve the dubious honour of being the first Internet clients to flatly hoover up the user's data and hand it over to a variety of places. The fact that we're okay enough with this to keep them installed on our devices is something I have a certain sense of unease with, as an infosec-leaning person (though I can't deny the obvious utility).

As Luna touched on, it takes a *large* team of people to build a web browser that can function like Firefox, Chrome, or Safari. I would love to see a future where we disband those large teams and work on more specialised protocols again, like NNTP. Smaller teams will form to work on protocol-specific clients, or possibly even multi-protocol clients (certain email (IMAP/SMTP/POP3) clients support(ed) Usenet, so NNTP as well, and some even had calendaring protocols built in (HTTP, webdav)).

Oh, and I want a pony. 🙂

@oluOnline

@luna Agreed on all points! I would like it if Gopher made a comeback. I dither on whether I would move my blog over to Gopher, even, so I don't know how committed I am to that.

I would love to see Usenet or something like it be a thing. (Forums aren't the same -- they're not federated, of course.) I can still run an NNTP server, and I'm strongly considering it again (save for the obvious "three people will use it, and eventually go away because only three people are using it" issue).

christina bowen

@oluOnline

Lesson:
Misaligned incentives wreck everything

Hope:
I like the @dweb principles

getdweb.net/principles/

Richard

@oluOnline Private control of public community is terrible.

Karl Heinz Häsliprinz

@oluOnline My biggest one is the community memory project.

Public terminals, with anonymous access. But also local fora full of local gossuip. Accessible late at night at a bus stop / phone booth type setup. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communit

Jonathan Korman

@oluOnline

It is tempting to assume that distributed architectures are inherently democratic, egalitarian, even liberatory.

They are not.

LisPi

@Miniver @oluOnline The only constant issue I've found that prevents this is that routing for distributed P2P can be interfered with.

Otherwise P2P truly is liberatory. Unfortunately the infrastructure doesn't follow that scheme, so any P2P that relies on the infrastructure is subject in some quantity to its issues.

LisPi

@Miniver @oluOnline In general you could take this as "the clearnet and physical routing infrastructure is badly designed", except that it is fully intentional for the physical infrastructure to exhibit those flaws.

The preservation of geopolitical authority on communication through infrastructural consolidation and control points is an intended flaw.

Jake in the desert

@oluOnline such a good question. I think the main thing of it is I would love for it to have more smaller makers, things made for ourselves - the amazing fediverse! Using DDG instead of Google, etc. Firefox instead of Chrome. More open source and self-run stuff over corporate walled off stuff. A lot of it I wrote in my top pinned post- I make things so infrequently but I do love and I adore simple/small web.

John Harris

@oluOnline I agree with every comment to this post so far. Simple HTML! Homepages! Webrings! Blogs! Non-commercial sites! People displaying their interests! Sites that are a trove of information! A relative absence of enshittification!

I'd like there to be more of a way for sites to survive beyond the interests and even lives of their founders. I hope someday the Internet Archive gets to saving pages in ways a bit deeper than just recording how they looked on specific dates.

Randulo.com

@oluOnline Yes, things were fun in the 1990s, exploring all the centered text and <BLINK> sites, then hating Java and the moving water, then Flash...
But I think the biggest change that came was the smartphone. Once the Internet was in the car, on the train, in classrooms and waiting rooms and ballrooms and meeting rooms and restaurants and next to beds, shit got real.
As someone says above, a tool and a weapon.

d.rift

@oluOnline That linkbacks ala tumblr did not automatically solve information organization and curation, which will always require a human touch to emerge new knowledge. There is no auto-zettelkasten.

jonny (good kind)

@oluOnline i'm gonna wait and read some of the other replies before saying anything, except to say now this is the kinda question that has the potential to get the whole fedi worked up and not let your notifications rest for days

Brinin’ Rotkel

@oluOnline Peopke will flock to proprietary systems because they offer something new and flashy, but only open standards will still be there a decade or more later.

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