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Tube🌞Time

that's both sides. phew, lots of work! the next step is to photograph the top and bottom sides of the PCB. I really ought to get a scanner. 😅

47 comments
Mäh

@tubetime impressive! Did they put component names on the silkscreen or do you have a system and just name them in order of removal?

Tube🌞Time

@maehw it's a mix. there are some that I had to assign myself (the ones starting from 300)

Tube🌞Time

@root42 yes it is a 4 layer board with an aluminum core

Keelan

@tubetime You need the new Beefchicken Industries PCB Orthohpoto 5000™! 1700 DPI at the level of the board. It's hard to beat that level of detail!

youtube.com/watch?v=Wba5bPn_vO

Tube🌞Time

I could just use a regular scanner, but this is a good excuse to try out this prototype Labsmore.com microscope that they loaned to me for free. (thanks guys!)

Tube🌞Time

funny story, I've got two XYZ stages running at the same time in this house.

Tube🌞Time

i'm using Fiji/ImageJ to do the stitching. basically you go plugins->stitching->grid/collection stitching. then you pick "Filename defined by position" and then use c{xxx}_r{yyy}.jpg" for the file names parameter.

Tube🌞Time

and here we are in Kicad 7 using the image overlay feature. it was pretty easy to get it going but the program slows down quite a bit for large images. you'll want to scale them down.

pro tip: add a scale factor in GIMP before exporting so Kicad gets the dimensions right.

Dick Telder

@tubetime
Run kicad backwards to get a schematic?

Tube🌞Time

making good progress. the top layer is the easy layer, however.

Tube🌞Time

got all the parts placed and many of the traces.

i will need to create custom footprints; the originals are much more compact than the Kicad defaults i've been using.

Tube🌞Time

still a few footprints to go, but it's easier to place vias now, and traces.

Tube🌞Time

down to the last few traces. i'm using a multimeter to ohm out and discover what they are connected to.

you can also see the faint outline of traces on layer 2 (the board has four layers). i'll need to route those next.

Tube🌞Time replied to Tube🌞Time

it's actually going pretty well despite me not being able to see where the traces go exactly. since i have net connectivity it helps guide me.

Parkman29 replied to Tube🌞Time

@tubetime Net connectivity is truely awesome

Tube🌞Time replied to Tube🌞Time

layer 2 is basically done. i've even got some copper pours! all this from staring *through* the top copper layer.

Tube🌞Time replied to Tube🌞Time

layer 3 was sorta hard and easy. it is mostly a ground plane, but there are a few other copper pours. i've got 100% connected, but there are some mystery pours that are just wired in parallel with pours on the top or bottom layer.

Tube🌞Time replied to Tube🌞Time

not satisfied with layer 3, so i am going back over it with a new technique: on a user defined layer, i'm drawing lines ONLY where i see a visible plane cut in that layer. then i'm adding "S" on top of every via that has spoked connections to the copper on that layer.

Tube🌞Time replied to Tube🌞Time

ahh that makes more sense. there are a few higher current connections, but more importantly, there are cuts in the ground plane! this creates a star ground at the large highlighted pad near the middle. this is the negative battery terminal (but after the current sense resistor)

Tube🌞Time replied to Tube🌞Time

anyway, i could fix up a few footprints but this reverse engineering job is essentially completed. you can find the design files here: github.com/schlae/Thinkpad700C

Tube🌞Time replied to Tube🌞Time

i haven't reverse engineered many 4-layer boards, but i'm kinda amazed it worked out this well.

Arthur Elsenaar replied to Tube🌞Time

@tubetime Amazing job, would love to see a video on how exactly you go about it.

Tube🌞Time replied to Tube🌞Time

reassembled like a magic trick. the layout CAD was quite helpful for finding footprint locations.

Simon Frankau replied to Tube🌞Time

@tubetime That's amazing.

What's the quote? Ah, yes.

"Sometimes, magic is just someone spending more time on something than anyone else might reasonably expect." -- Teller

Jake replied to Tube🌞Time

@tubetime Wow. How in the world do you figure out the middle layers? It’s a good thing this one was only four - I think some modern PCBs are 12+ layers.

The aim is not to be able to re-make a PCB, but just to be able to debug one?

Tube🌞Time replied to Jake

@gogobonobo the thread explains how i did it. higher layer count boards require more invasive methods. but yes i wanted to be able to debug boards corroded by a leaking capacitor.

http :verified: replied to Tube🌞Time

@tubetime How did you get to these middle layers? I mean, you can measure some connections, but not get the layout exactly, unless you open it or have some 3d x-rays or something.

Tube🌞Time replied to http

@http i have a schematic (that i ohmed out) already, and i can see *part* of the traces on that layer. that and a process of logical deduction led me to an approximation of the original layer.

Ian Hanschen replied to Tube🌞Time

@tubetime does kicad have any way to see multiple layers side by side? Sometimes when I have components on both sides that overlap it gets difficult even when I’m changing layer visibility.

Zitruskeks replied to Tube🌞Time

@tubetime Ohming it out on that scale is impressive. I just did the same on a board with just 20 dip ics and even that was a long task.

Well, I guess it didn't help that the ohming was done remotely by a friend who was a few hundred miles away and had borrowed the card to clone while i was doing the KiCad part :)

phaseseeker

@tubetime It can't produce a schematic from the traced PCB, right? That's the kind of thing that could really cut down on the time needed to RE a board...

Tube🌞Time

@phaseseeker i'm starting with a schematic i already ohmed out the hard way. i'm not sure about the workflow going the other way around, i'd have to think about that. probably i'd place all the footprints first and then figure out connectivity.

Chuck

@tubetime This has me thinking about building a programmable XY stage for my new microscope.

yusufm

@tubetime if you end up imaging a pcb with the components on it, you can try out focus stacking to get full depth of fields. Not sure it that would be possible with a scanner.

Tube🌞Time

@yusufm yes, i'm very interested to see how the focus stacking works out once i get to that point.

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