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Jason Lefkowitz

And the best part of that era was that the Mozilla Suite was Mozilla’s primary product, it was available to download at Mozilla.org, and Mozilla went to great lengths to try and convince people NOT TO DOWNLOAD IT.

That was because AOL had bought what was left of Netscape, and were trying to relaunch the brand with a new “Netscape browser” that was basically just the Mozilla Suite with a different theme and some bits that users liked and advertisers hated — things like the pop-up blocker — stripped out.

So users had a choice: they could either download an enshittified version of Mozilla from Netscape, or they could download a non-enshittified version from Mozilla.

The hitch here was, though, that AOL was by far Mozilla’s biggest funder. (This was a few years before the search deal put Google in that position, which it retains today.) Mozilla management did not want to piss AOL off. And what AOL wanted was for people who wanted Mozilla technology to download the new Netscape.

So an absolutely hilarious compromise was reached. Mozilla would continue to offer the unshittified version of the product on its web site. But if you went to actually download it there, the web site would tell you that you really shouldn’t.

If this all sounds ludicrous to you, that’s because it was.

38 comments
Jason Lefkowitz

NB: If you ever wondered where Thunderbird came from, it came from Firefox blowing up the Mozilla Suite. The email client component of the Suite was never anywhere near as popular as the browser component, but it at least had a healthy base of active users, which was more than anyone could say for the other parts of the Suite. So when the Suite exploded, the email client was salvaged from the debris, given its own installer, and turned into a standalone product called Thunderbird.

Jason Lefkowitz

Also NB: If for some reason you want to try living in a world where Firefox never happened, the SeaMonkey project carried on development of the old, monolithic Mozilla Suite. And they’re still at it — their most recent point release was on September 20.

You shouldn’t expect it to be up to date with all the architectural improvements that have gone into Firefox since Chrome changed the game. And I know from years of using the Mozilla Suite myself that its kitchen-sink approach is not for me. But I also know there were some people who really loved it, so it’s cool to see they are still keeping it alive.

seamonkey-project.org/

Also NB: If for some reason you want to try living in a world where Firefox never happened, the SeaMonkey project carried on development of the old, monolithic Mozilla Suite. And they’re still at it — their most recent point release was on September 20.

You shouldn’t expect it to be up to date with all the architectural improvements that have gone into Firefox since Chrome changed the game. And I know from years of using the Mozilla Suite myself that its kitchen-sink approach is not for me. But I...

mcc

@jalefkowit wow. does the whole thing still use XUL

Jason Lefkowitz

@mcc I’m not sure. They said something in 2017 about planning to excise XUL (which, yes, 💯). But I can’t find a release since then with a formal declaration that the work has been done.

(I’m not an active SeaMonkey user myself, so all I know is what I read on their web site.)

Glyph

@jalefkowit @mcc I do still kinda have some nostalgia for Composer. The whole "suite" idea gets a bit of a bad rap, I think; MS Office (and, heck, iWork) is a "suite" and nobody has problems with that, because it still presents the elementts of its suite as normal applications and not as a single fused block of functionality that is inexplicably built as its own launcher.

Glyph replied to Glyph

@jalefkowit @mcc the problem with SeaMonkey was that the UI was terrible and the interaction design was terrible and the bloatedness of the "suite" idiom did make it a little worse, but it was much more a symptom of the disease than the cause

Glyph replied to Glyph

@jalefkowit @mcc anyway I say this because while firefox was unambiguously vastly better, the abandonment of composer as part of the functionality of a browser was symbolic of a move from a world where we wanted everyone to be able to take control of HTML editing and website design, to a world where users used browsers and serious web developers used development tools and there was no overlap between these populations. once again, symptom not a cause, but it would have been nice if they'd tried

Jason Lefkowitz replied to Glyph

@glyph @mcc All good points that I wouldn’t disagree with, though I would offer some caveats re Composer. I wrote them up in another reply over here: octodon.social/@jalefkowit/111

Glyph replied to Jason

@jalefkowit @mcc yeah, agreed with that take as well. the margins of this text field cannot readily contain the amount I could rant about the complexities of the history of markup authoring toolchain development

Oblomov replied to Glyph

@glyph @jalefkowit @mcc

it should also be noted that while SeaMonkey was really heavy for its time, I have doubts on how much this was due to it being a suite. Both Opera before the switch to Blink, and Vivaldi now, were/are pretty complete Internet suites (even though they do lack something like Composer) and are much sleeker.

Krishean Draconis

@mcc @jalefkowit wow, there's a name i haven't heard in a very, very long time. i submitted patches for chatzilla long ago

Andy Lundell 🙄

@jalefkowit Oh wow, They even still have Chatzilla.

Perhaps one day somebody will use it.

railmeat

@jalefkowit
That’s admirable. I would never want to use it though.

Brett Edmond Carlock

@jalefkowit SeaMonkey is absolutely stellar, and I guess I prefer it since I grew up on the internet within AOL, so an all-in-one internet suite feels comfy, but the older LTS base means many "secure" sites throw errors and don't let me use them when I'm in SeaMonkey.

Howard Chu @ Symas

@jalefkowit it's still my daily driver. I still build it myself, leftover habit from when I was actively contributing to it. The split to firefox never made any sense to me. I can't see using an email client without an integrated HTML renderer. Or without an integrated calendar. I did a bunch of work to improve the MailNews codebase, accelerate their build system, and keep Calendar working in the suite. highlandsun.com/hyc/#mozilla_h

anthony

@jalefkowit i liked the suite! i went from netscape communicator to the mozilla suite to seamonkey and didn't switch to the firefox/thunderbird combo until like 2010 after it became clear that the seamonkey browser wasn't keeping pace.

Jason Lefkowitz

So how do I know all this Mozilla trivia, you ask?

Well, I was an avid early user of the Mozilla Suite. (I think the first version I used as a daily driver was the Milestone 18 alpha release, which the release notes say came out exactly 23 years ago today — October 12, 2000.) And at some point I thought: hey, this is all kind of nerdy and confusing. But we want normal people to use this. Maybe I should write a book to help them learn how!

(Remember books? Probably not, it was a long time ago.)

So I made an outline and started grinding through it, writing explanations of what an IRC client was and why Uncle Ted should want one, going through the pros and cons of various Mozilla “distributions” — that’s what Mozilla called projects like AOL’s Netscape, “distributions,” because what better way to appeal to the masses in the year 2000 than to drag in some Linux jargon, jfc — and all the rest of it.

Until about a third of the way through the outline, when I had The Epiphany.

The Epiphany was: any web browser that requires a book for normal people to learn how to use it is probably not a web browser good enough to deserve having books written about it.

And so ended my book project.

www-archive.mozilla.org/projec

So how do I know all this Mozilla trivia, you ask?

Well, I was an avid early user of the Mozilla Suite. (I think the first version I used as a daily driver was the Milestone 18 alpha release, which the release notes say came out exactly 23 years ago today — October 12, 2000.) And at some point I thought: hey, this is all kind of nerdy and confusing. But we want normal people to use this. Maybe I should write a book to help them learn how!

Jennifer Wojcik

@jalefkowit I am loving your explainers of the browser wars, how Firefox came about, etc.

I remember it all too. Hilarious. It really was the wild west.

Jason Lefkowitz

@JenWojcik Thanks! Maybe I should write a book about that 😆

Jennifer Wojcik

@jalefkowit

Especially while a lot of those people involved are still alive. It may not be so in 5 or 10 years.

matt

@jalefkowit thanks for the trip down memory lane. Here's a side fork in the path (one of many) that's interesting: jwz.org/doc/about-jwz.html

matt

@jalefkowit and a long treatment on how the Mozilla name and mascot came to exist in the first place: jwz.org/blog/2016/10/they-live

Huh, reading this again, after your thread, I'm even more struck by how apropos "They Live" as a background theme is.

the clownward spiral

@jalefkowit I always thought there was something wonderfully egalitarian about a browser that shipped the tools to build the pages it was designed to view. I think that's a thing we could use a lot more of.

I remember those early Mozilla alpha/beta releases, they were pretty rough, but I used them anyway. And Netscape 3/4 before that.

Julius Schwartzenberg

@jalefkowit I still miss the full suite sometimes. It was tough for me to abandon it for Firefox & Thunderbird, but I tend to stick with software for a long time.

The main thing I did not understand is why after the big Mozilla (Seamonkey) 1.0 release in 2001, they released yet again a Seamonkey 1.0 after Firefox became the main product.

Travis F W

@jalefkowit I used seamonkey for several years, way back. I totally forgot.

matt

@jalefkowit as far as I know SeaMonkey is the only branch that kept plugging away at the idea that a 'web browser' could and should also be a 'web editor'.

It's a great loss that we don't have any mainstream web editors today.

Jason Lefkowitz

@maphew I don’t disagree, I just think that idea kind of got impossible to realize as web publishing branched out to encompass things like databases and programming languages. It all just got too complicated to wrap into a single product. Even more ambitious attempts like FrontPage and Dreamweaver lost traction eventually.

That being said, I think plain old static web publishing is overdue for a comeback. Package up an HTML editor with some fun CSS themes and cheap static hosting, and tell Gen Z it’s retro hip, the Polaroid of web publishing. I think that could actually find some takers!

@maphew I don’t disagree, I just think that idea kind of got impossible to realize as web publishing branched out to encompass things like databases and programming languages. It all just got too complicated to wrap into a single product. Even more ambitious attempts like FrontPage and Dreamweaver lost traction eventually.

Steve 🇨🇦🇺🇦

@jalefkowit I think they tried to spin off the chat client, too, but it ultimately became just a plug-in for Firefox and ultimately died.

:mima_rule: Mima-sama

@tewha@appdot.net still lives on in the project; it's compatible now actually thanks to a (the forked 52 ESR codebase uses) fork of CZ called spearheading the initial effort of modernizing the client. https://github.com/Ascrod/ambassador/

But as an extension, yeah it's pretty much dead.
as it is right now just doesn't make ChatZilla work...

@jalefkowit@octodon.social

nicolas

@jalefkowit And the web page editor Composer became NVU (later Kompozer)! I think.

Did the chat component become anything on its own? (though Thunderbird now includes chat)

Will Deakin

@jalefkowit as someone who ran Linux From Scratch for a bit, Firefox was a breath of fresh air. I remember spending an inordinate amount of time trying to fix library dependency issues with, say, the HTML editor, which I didn't really care about as...I had emacs.

Mozilla Inc then put some embargo on Firefox (name copyright or somesuch) and so Iceweasel was born.

(I then grew a clue and stopped compiling everything from scratch, and Mozilla seemed to see sense and removed the restriction).

Will Deakin

@jalefkowit anyway thanks for this. Ah! The memories.

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