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Tuta

You've seen it on Reddit or Hacker News: People complaining their self-hosted emails always end up in the spam folder of Gmail - even if they set up everything correctly. The question being asked: Is Gmail killing independent email? ๐Ÿง

tutanota.com/blog/posts/gmail-

Du hast es wahrscheinlich schon auf Reddit & Hacker News gesehen: Leute, die sich beschweren, dass ihre selbst gehosteten E-Mails immer im Spam-Ordner von Gmail landen. Gerechtfertigt oder Missbrauch der Macht? ๐Ÿง

tutanota.com/de/blog/posts/gma

27 Apr 2023 at 14:30 | Open on mastodon.social
19 comments
kel

@Tutanota

100%

They silently delete mail to/from Tuta!

I have checked and double checked (although not for a little while) and it just disappears, it doesn't even make it to the junk folder!

If I was an independent, I would be organising a class action against email for industrial sabotage.

27 Apr 2023 at 14:49 | Open on mastodon.online
kel

@Tutanota

I have just checked it again with my own personal accounts and it worked this time. Perhaps thaey have realised they were not going to get away with it.

I will do another test with a friend where the emails are different.

p.s. there was also a recent change where gmail was refusing anything without an SPF record. I had to go through and update a lot of domains/mail account settings manually so they would work again.

27 Apr 2023 at 14:56 | Open on mastodon.online
kel

@Tutanota

Further follow up; a friend using gmail with whom I previously found it impossible to communicate with using tuta has just replied to my email - so that is working now!

This is good news, I can continue the mission!

27 Apr 2023 at 19:57 | Open on mastodon.online
Mawoka

@Tutanota
Google isn't the problem (for me), but it's Microsoft.

27 Apr 2023 at 14:58 | Open on mastodon.online
tierce ๐Ÿ„ฏ

@Tutanota Yes. They do.

And Yahooยฎ introduce an stupid, but efficient way, to reject mails comming from properly configured smtp server (fixed ipv4&6, spf, ptr, dkim, dmarc, etc and off course not sending spams) โ€ฆ they check if the @domain.tld have an SOA.

Meaning that free / libre (sub)domains like *.nohos.st, *.ynh.st, *.nohost.me are rejected because the SOA il not on the sub.domain.tld.

And it's not the only thing.

Blacklisting / greylisting servers with a ยซ low reputation ยป โˆ’a server seen forst the first time and sending 2 mails a week is have a ยซ low reputation ยป โ€ฆ because it's just new and unknown, is an other attemps to kill independant mail hosting.

Those corporation are killing Internet.

@Tutanota Yes. They do.

And Yahooยฎ introduce an stupid, but efficient way, to reject mails comming from properly configured smtp server (fixed ipv4&6, spf, ptr, dkim, dmarc, etc and off course not sending spams) โ€ฆ they check if the @domain.tld have an SOA.

Meaning that free / libre (sub)domains like *.nohos.st, *.ynh.st, *.nohost.me are rejected because the SOA il not on the sub.domain.tld.

27 Apr 2023 at 15:21 | Open on mastodon.pirateparty.be
Mx Amber Alex
stereo griever

@Tutanota gmail is nothing. microsoft does not even throw selfhosters to spam, it's straight up quarantine.

27 Apr 2023 at 22:15 | Open on social.hackerspace.pl
ecsd

@Tutanota

YES, Gmail is killing independent providers, but you're about two decades late in complaining.

They keep proprietary block lists and arrogate the right to decide who is a "spammer". Little ISPs don't have the means to sue Gmail for relief. They have forever harassed my domain, and I have to tell my users to tell their gmail contact to whitelist the domain, explicitly.

I can tell them: really? Spam? PROVE IT, show me the offending email. What spam. They can't. It doesn't exist. But they continue to pretend such -- and I DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO SUE.

THIS IS AT THE SAME TIME THAT GOOGLE HAD LONG NOW BEEN THE SINGLE LARGEST SOURCE OF DOMESTIC SPAM ON THE INTERNET. Microsoft (wonder of wonders) is second, but in FAR second place.

That is
WE CAN SPAM YOU
but we defend OUR users against what we FALSELY claim is YOUR spam.

The successful class action suit would compel Google to use the SAME filters on their OUTBOUND mail that they use on their INBOUND mail because otherwise they're RACKETEERING, by pretending only they can stop spam, while the other ISPs have to spend time effort and money stopping GOOGLE spam. "Tired of all the spam you get at your ISP? Why not switch?" -- but all that spam CAME FROM YOU ...

@Tutanota

YES, Gmail is killing independent providers, but you're about two decades late in complaining.

They keep proprietary block lists and arrogate the right to decide who is a "spammer". Little ISPs don't have the means to sue Gmail for relief. They have forever harassed my domain, and I have to tell my users to tell their gmail contact to whitelist the domain, explicitly.

27 Apr 2023 at 22:19 | Open on kolektiva.social
Purple

@Tutanota ein bekannter von mir hat sein eigenen Server aufgegeben, weil seine Emails nur noch konsequent in den Spam Ordner gelandet sind :(

27 Apr 2023 at 22:34 | Open on eldritch.cafe
:debian: ๐šœ๐šŽ๐š•๐šŽ๐šŠ :t_blink:
TransitBiker

@Tutanota icloud isnโ€™t innocent either.

28 Apr 2023 at 6:55 | Open on urbanists.social
๐Ÿ…บ๐Ÿ…ธ๐Ÿ…ผ ๐Ÿ†‚๐Ÿ…ฒ๐Ÿ…ท๐Ÿ†„๐Ÿ…ป๐Ÿ†‰

@Tutanota Actually, I have found Outlook365 to be much, much worse than Gmail. They very often mark mails as spam, even though DMARC, SPIF, DKIM, etc. are all set up correctly. You can then, with quite some work, get them to accept the domain again - only to find it back on the spam list a few months later. With gmail, I have added the domains to the domain list in the google postmaster tool. thats it! no more gmail spam folder to my mails.

28 Apr 2023 at 7:03 | Open on social.data.coop
Julieรฑ in the Sky

@Tutanota

Mmmm... This sounds a bit rhetorical, doesn't it ? Although, in this case, the real
question should be : is anybody still seriously using gmail for important matters ? ๐Ÿคฃ

28 Apr 2023 at 7:08 | Open on mastodon.art
Lutin Discret

@Tutanota can't #DMA regulation do something about that? Like, a collective action against Google and Microsoft to force them to interop at email level

cc @SuVergnolle

28 Apr 2023 at 9:30 | Open on mastodon.libre-entreprise.com
Blortโ„ข ๐Ÿ€โ“‹๐Ÿฅทโ˜ฃ๏ธ

@Tutanota These posts confuse me. I'm not the most technical person around. I'm not the least, either, but certainly not the most. And yet, I've been hosting my own email and talking with people on Gmail fine for years. All I did was set up #Yunohost on a VPS that wasn't chock full of spammers, follow Yunohost's instructions on what to add to the DNS settings, regularly update and... well, that's pretty much it.

Somehow though, social is full of claims that selfhosting email is impossible?

28 Apr 2023 at 11:17 | Open on social.tchncs.de
C.

@Tutanota

Yes, Gmail absolutely makes it difficult to get reliable delivery to Gmail users if you're not on Gmail or one of the other big webmail providers.

My server has never sent spam, ever.
It's had the same IP address for 15 years.
It's not on the DUL or any other list.
It is properly configured for and uses SMTP STARTTLS, DKIM, and SPF.
It has restrictive policies for SPF and DMARC and advertises as such.
It passes all validators.

And deliverability to #Gmail is a complete crapshoot.

@Tutanota

Yes, Gmail absolutely makes it difficult to get reliable delivery to Gmail users if you're not on Gmail or one of the other big webmail providers.

My server has never sent spam, ever.
It's had the same IP address for 15 years.
It's not on the DUL or any other list.
It is properly configured for and uses SMTP STARTTLS, DKIM, and SPF.
It has restrictive policies for SPF and DMARC and advertises as such.
It passes all validators.

24 May 2023 at 1:56 | Open on mindly.social
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