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Chris Trottier

I agree with @thedextriarchy. Shoving as many hashtags into a Mastodon post feels like spam.

Unfortunately, if you want to be discovered on Mastodon, that’s what you got to do.

This Verge article suggests that removing hashtags from the post body could be a solution (à la Tumblr).

But there’s an easier solution: allow full text search.

Almost every other Fediverse service allows this, including Akkoma, Calckey, Friendica, etc.

theverge.com/23673125/mastodon

@fediversenews
10 Apr 2023 at 19:33 | Open on mastodon.social
33 comments
Chris Trottier

Almost every time I write about Mastodon’s awful search capabilities, someone comes out of the woodwork to say that Mastodon is better without search.

What’s funny is that so many of these anti-search folks are *not* using Mastodon, and are therefore benefiting from better search services on their preferred Fediverse platforms.

10 Apr 2023 at 19:37 | Open on mastodon.social
Oblomov

@atomicpoet yeah, the current system needs to be improved even if restrictions on searchable contents and posts remain the same. The fact that I often can't find _my own toots_ is ridiculous.

10 Apr 2023 at 19:44 | Open on sociale.network
Chris Trottier

I’m also convinced that “anti-search” is an awful band-aid solution to what really ails Mastodon: virality takes a backseat to community safety.

Comment control should be a thing.

Local-only posting should be a thing.

Blacklisting and whitelisting options for regular users should be a thing.

Instead, search and social discovery are kneecapped.

10 Apr 2023 at 19:45 | Open on mastodon.social
AB

@atomicpoet

I found your posts using Elastic Search, which I love.

10 Apr 2023 at 19:51 | Open on frinsocial.uk
jrm4

@atomicpoet

That's a good point.

Offhand and broadly:

LIMITING your reach should be the opt-in, and if you disagree, I think you're using this place wrong.

If you want group privacy than don't use something **literally designed for** the opposite of that.

#mastodon

10 Apr 2023 at 19:56 | Open on mastodon.social
Mike Garuccio

@atomicpoet

This ends up looking a lot like security through obscurity.

Search can absolutely be implemented adversarially, which will bypass any sort of controls/opt-in functionality and not supporting it natively absolutely means that’s going to happen sooner and the tools will work better.

11 Apr 2023 at 0:50 | Open on hachyderm.io
supernovae

@atomicpoet No idea what drives anti search. I’ve added it. Oddly enough we’re able to have much better mod tools and proactively catch things with search. In many ways fediverse platforms could be lighter and more easily distributed based on search vs db/redis/streaming and web workers

12 Apr 2023 at 1:23 | Open on universeodon.com
Joe

@atomicpoet We need search; I am fine with it being opt in if that is what it takes to overcome objections. People who create for a living or write to spread a message *want* their posts to be found.

12 Apr 2023 at 2:05 | Open on sfba.social
Pxtl

@atomicpoet right? I want an algorithmic feed that shows me everything my follows are interacting with. I want to know what words are trending in my circle of the fediverse.

I just also want douchenozzles who send rape threats and transphobic insults to be sent a kick in the balls over standard TCP/IP.

I liked the hellsite, other than its ownership and its lack of hackability to fix its flaws.

My worry though is what person will suffer moderating such a place.

12 Apr 2023 at 2:51 | Open on mastodon.social
Robbie Norlyn :coffefied:

@atomicpoet In search of the missing Mastodon? The trial by fire story that I believe will help the world more than Twitter ever did. #Search #Mastodon #Clients

10 Apr 2023 at 19:49 | Open on mstdn.social
Mike Fraser :Jets: :flag:

@atomicpoet I don't get the privacy argument with search. You're posting in the public domain where every other search engine in the universe can crawl and index your posts anyway.

10 Apr 2023 at 20:05 | Open on thecanadian.social
DELETED

@atomicpoet

I only use Mastodon for social (apart from occasionally encouraging people to leave corporate control anti-Social )

I get trash results from band search in full text like birdsite. 500 false positives for 5 hits.

I get great results from #mastodon #hashtags like 15relevant results 2 false positives in 17 results.

It's not black and white. Sometimes hashtags do jobs that full text utterly fails at.

10 Apr 2023 at 20:07 | Open on mastodonapp.uk
Chris Trottier

@ArtBear Neat. That’s not a reason to disable full text search.

10 Apr 2023 at 20:12 | Open on mastodon.social
Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

@atomicpoet I'm using Mastodon, and I think the existing search capabilities are fine and do not wish for them to be extended. A lot if people don't want more searching here — that's why it is the way it is. Those other tools you mentioned should exist as well, mind. Why not have all the tools fir safety at hand?

10 Apr 2023 at 23:12 | Open on mas.to
Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

@atomicpoet I don't understand why Mastodon's lack of search bothers you when you are using these other services as well, or why this question keeps coming up over and over again. Out of genuine curiosity, why is it an issue for you that some people on some #Fediverse services you don't have do use don't want centralized, full-text search?

11 Apr 2023 at 10:15 | Open on mas.to
Anders Eknert

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews while I don’t disagree, another solution could perhaps be to have hashtags at the bottom of a toot hidden by default, similar to how you can add a description to images, which is only seen when requested.

10 Apr 2023 at 19:38 | Open on hachyderm.io
Cheri

@thedextriarchy @fediversenews @atomicpoet I shove hashtags into my posts, but it isn’t because I wish to be discovered. It’s only so that I can more easily find my own posts later should the need arise.

Allow full text search. A thousand times YES to this!!! 👏👏

One reason Twitter excelled at being a news aggregator was because all its text was searchable. Couldn’t care less about quote tweeting but I sorely miss text search capability.

10 Apr 2023 at 19:40 | Open on mstdn.social
Martin Urschel

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews When the Mastodon development roadmap mentions search improvements, might they refer to full text search? Do we know what they are actually working on?

10 Apr 2023 at 19:42 | Open on det.social
DELETED

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews

But, what about false positives filling full text search with trash results?

Let's try full text, not author curated hashtag, searching for the last few bands/artists I have played..

Bully
Dreamers
Waterparks
Tigercub
Inhaler
Roe Kapara
Arrows In Action
Ok Go
Himalayas
Friday Pilots Club
Pvris
Set It Off

Most of those will be trash results.

Imagine Wet Leg, last year, before all the awards.

User curation of hashtags is good here.

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews

But, what about false positives filling full text search with trash results?

Let's try full text, not author curated hashtag, searching for the last few bands/artists I have played..

Bully
Dreamers
Waterparks
Tigercub
Inhaler
Roe Kapara
Arrows In Action
Ok Go
Himalayas
Friday Pilots Club
Pvris
Set It Off

10 Apr 2023 at 19:48 | Open on mastodonapp.uk
Iaη

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews
It's because there is a need for special interest groups. Which is still missing from Mastodon.

10 Apr 2023 at 21:33 | Open on mastodon.cloud
HistoPol (#HP)

@atomicpoet

How about search capability one of these servers for toots on #Mastodon servers?
#Hashtags and #privacy or full-text search?

@thedextriarchy @fediversenews

10 Apr 2023 at 22:04 | Open on mastodon.social
Dr. Quadragon ❌

@atomicpoet Hashtags that are removed from the body are not hashtags. They are just tags.

Actually, a hashtag is mainly a space-saving measure. It eliminates a separate field for them.

@thedextriarchy @fediversenews

10 Apr 2023 at 22:07 | Open on mastodon.ml
Chris Trottier

@drq @thedextriarchy @fediversenews However you describe them, hashtags are ugly and take away attention from the main content.

10 Apr 2023 at 22:09 | Open on mastodon.social
Mike Cohen

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews @DemocracySpot I tend to be hashtag blind and skip over them when I read a post.

10 Apr 2023 at 22:11 | Open on sfba.social
Jeff Sikes

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews Yes, Tumblr gets hashtags right. I would hate to lose them altogether, as others have said they provide a bit of structure and a way to identify collections of thought on a topic.

One concern I guess I’d have is if there is no limit or a much higher limit on the number of hashtags that can be entered. Could lead to what basically ends up as ads/spam in your hashtag feeds.

11 Apr 2023 at 0:32 | Open on mastodon.social
Eric Jennings

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews

my approach has evolved. what i do now is only include 2-3 tags (in context) per post

so instead of one post with 12 tags, if i want that number of tags i have to post 4-6 times, taking care to make each post unique so they still work on their own

it requires more thought and time, which in the end, improves the quality of my content, imho

(don't look at my timeline, i just started this yesterday)

11 Apr 2023 at 4:22 | Open on sfba.social
Eric Dannewitz

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews @donmelton Ok, but are you going to PAY for the increase in space it will require on instances?

Doubt it

11 Apr 2023 at 4:45 | Open on musician.social
Brian Gerfort🇺🇦:shuttersnitch:

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews Yep. I’d put this suggestion *above* quote tooting.

11 Apr 2023 at 11:14 | Open on mastodon.nu
Vyr Cossont 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️

@thedextriarchy @fediversenews @atomicpoet it's not even hard! i implemented Mastodon full-text post and account search with advanced filters and prototype opt-in in github.com/VyrCossont/mastodon and a few instances are already running versions of it: the largest ones i'm aware of are universeodon.com, which sponsored part of the work, as well as cupoftea.social and infosec.exchange.

from what i've heard back, none have taken a noticeable performance hit over what it takes to run ElasticSearch in the first place. resources aren't the real issue; it's a product direction problem with brand-name Mastodon.

(reposted from account i actually use)

@thedextriarchy @fediversenews @atomicpoet it's not even hard! i implemented Mastodon full-text post and account search with advanced filters and prototype opt-in in github.com/VyrCossont/mastodon and a few instances are already running versions of it: the largest ones i'm aware of are universeodon.com, which sponsored part of the work, as well as cupoftea.social and infosec.exchange.

12 Apr 2023 at 1:14 | Open on universeodon.com
Chris Trottier
Vyr Cossont 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews thanks, i try. but if i was really cool, i'd be working on safety features like reply control, embedding control, or instance blocks for users that are real blocks and not just mutes

12 Apr 2023 at 2:55 | Open on universeodon.com
Vijay Prema

@atomicpoet @thedextriarchy @fediversenews I don't like the look either but the main reason I used them inline is that my server has a 500 character limit, and often I cant waste it. Another idea would be if Mastodon hides the hash symbol and instead renders some subtle text effect to denote hash tags, so it looks less ugly.

Separately, full search would be cool. Not sure why anti-search, given other fedi apps have it. I thought maybe performance or index storage issues, or fear of scraping.

12 Apr 2023 at 3:08 | Open on fosstodon.org
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