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Top-level
 @davidgerard From their discussions, I gather the accusation is that most of the objectors don't actually have a stake in Go. I'm sure there's some truth to this, but at the same time I anecdotally see some objectors who do use Go. Not everyone who has a stake engages when they're happy with how the project's going, so determining to what degree that accusation is true is extremely difficult. 36 comments
@mawhrin @davidgerard Personally Go was never my taste in language... They advertised themselves on their elegant design, but they don't strike me as anything special there. And they have some of the same footguns as C.  @raktheundead @alcinnz Go really is a descendant of Modula and Oberon, which are descended from Algol; and it has CSP-like features taken from SuperPascal and Joyce. Robert Griesemer, who now works on Go, worked on Oberon. The rest of the syntax is from the Unix and Plan-9 people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=17m50s&v=0ReKdcpNyQg&feature=youtu.be  @alcinnz @mawhrin @davidgerard It was kind of nice right before they decided to make it look more like C++17.  @drwho The clean, simplicity is what I like(d?) about Go. It got many things correct. Then Ken Thompson retired, and the team decided Go needed to be web scale. “Googled” should replace“ Rube Goldberg Machine” in the lexicon. @mawhrin @alcinnz @davidgerard Also if it doesn't pass. Look closely. The whole ecosystem is entirely, well, Google. @Natureshadow @mawhrin @davidgerard There is a lot of nice networking software written in Go... For some reason or other... I do use some of it!  @alcinnz @Natureshadow @davidgerard and my favourite ansible secret storage backend (gopass). anyways, the company i work for depends on google's existence, so i'm not going to go all righteous on all google products. but i can grumble re: technical choices in a limited field, and i will, and there's a limited chance it could've been heard. @mawhrin @alcinnz @davidgerard I never got the point of gopass. I mean, it's just pass, rewritten for no reason at all with no benefits at all. @alcinnz @mawhrin @davidgerard I do as well. Seems I need to stop. (Although as a fun fact, a long-standing network bug is actually something else that drives me away from Go... https://github.com/golang/go/issues/52341 has put an important project on hold here, and now I will just rewrite in Rust instead 🤷)  @Adrian Cochrane The thing is that a lot of software written in Go will be deployed using the Go toolchain. As a sysadmin or regular user that just happens to install the occasional app using Go, I'm probably less inclined to even be aware there's something to opt out from.
 @alcinnz @davidgerard Everyone has a stake in the normalization of opt-out telemetry.  @davidgerard Yeah, I have extremely little faith in Google. They're experts at enclosing opensource! In their hands, CoCs are anecdotally but one tool for that... @davidgerard @alcinnz not sure what data is being sent, but according to GDPR (if that data falls under GDPR) opt-out is not an option, it must be opt-in. @zoid @davidgerard The proposal hadn't fully decided, but it does say it'd be a handful of numbers with nothing personally identifying. Judging by proposed usecases it'd be things like which features you've used, which platform you're on, performance metrics, etc. @alcinnz It shouldn’t be bad, but they still shouldn’t do it. “Go get” reaching out to “proxy.golang.org“ to get packages is more worrying to me. @alcinnz @davidgerard I had just kind of gotten around to accepting a plan to start a rewrite in Go at my day job. The alternative is C# and I had just barely been convinced that Go was the least nasty alternative, when this happened. That said I still think Go seems more likely to survive as an open source fork than C# if/when the company abandons it, so it may still be the alternative that's the least likely to be a waste of time to learn here ... @bkhl @davidgerard I hear GCC already has a Go compiler... It can be hard for them to keep up with the "move fast & break things" mentality of a lot modern languages, but that certainly helps! @alcinnz An alternate compiler will be nice. Luckily, Go moves rather slow, and is very invested in semver. It’s the opposite of rust. Still need alternates for the rest of the tooling though. @bkhl I’m not sure what the requirements are, but go is pretty nice compared to C#. C# does have decimal types which could be handy. @alcinnz @davidgerard By that argument the only people with a "stake" in the Go compiler are the people developing Go. That's not why you would make an issue like that public. @orangestar @davidgerard I do believe they count people using the Go compiler as stakeholders, the people from whom their collecting (minimal) analytics, the people writing Go code. @alcinnz I understand this sentiment but meant it more like "This is what that sentiment can be inadvertently boiled down to if you took it the wrong way." @alcinnz @davidgerard of course people not engaging when they are happy is also one of the classic problems of gathering actionable feedback in open source. Several times I've fallen into the trap of biasing the wants of a loud minority over a status quo that a larger group was happy with. Of course I heard from the formerly-happy people after they were no longer happy but it was too late to revert. I don't want telemetry either but this is one way it can help. @apparentlymart @davidgerard Yeah, shame analytics doesn't help avert controversy when the controversy is the addition of analytics... @apparentlymart cough Go generics cough People keep trying to make Go into Java, and they need to stop. I’m one of the few who opts into telemetry like this, so I’m only annoyed it’s opt-out. @alcinnz @davidgerard this pissed me off more than the original proposal. It set up an us-vs-them situation between the maintainers and the users where the needs of the core team override the needs of the users. As someone who manages god knows how many Go binaries in CI and test systems they're basically telling me that my time is not valuable. I'll have to audit everything, build tools to opt-out and track compliance, etc. It's left a bad taste. @serpentroots Yeah. It really needs to be a more open project, which has been a complaint from the beginning, under a separate foundation. Especially at this point. It’s too bad since I really like Go. |
Gregory's Server
@alcinnz @davidgerard i might not have a stake in go directly, but i will sure as hell discourage anyone who asks from using it for future projects (if this passes).