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Chowderman 🍴

@phneutral @mina

“Hints at fiscal union” aren’t good enough. The sad truth is that there is no realistic hope of Germany agreeing.

The call was to “Tax the rich”, nothing else. That is no more than an envy based call, as are such simplistic statements as “no billionaire has earned their money”.

EU nations are already free to set a level of taxation for the best function of their societies. Social equity is only one aspect, not “killing the goose that lays the golden egg” another.

EU nations already do comparatively well in wealth distribution (see link), but not in GDP growth (see second link). The rich are already being highly taxed and EU GDP is failing.

I refer you to my original toot. I am not a billionaire and don’t feel sorry for them, but neither am I envious to the degree that I would blindly lobby for them to be extortionately taxed regardless of whether that destroys the economy in my nation.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_c

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o

21 September at 8:14 | Wall-to-wall | Open on universeodon.com
30 comments
Mark Mullen

@chowderman @phneutral @mina

Your confidence that envy is the motive says more about you than it does about the initiative or the logic behind it.

21 September at 8:39 | Open on mastodon.sdf.org
Mina

@mmm

Actually, #TaxTheRich is just a catchy name.

The initiative text is economically sound and detailed.

@chowderman @phneutral

21 September at 8:42 | Open on berlin.social
Chowderman 🍴

@mina @mmm @phneutral

Admittedly the text is more positive than the headline “Tax the rich”. Yet that headline is a simple one that would only appeal to simple, envious minds.

“The rich” is much broader (rich is very much comparative) than “great wealth” used in the text. The issue of course is that those with great wealth are highly mobile and can up sticks and move to other parts of the world.

It appears to me that maximising the tax income from the wealthy is far more important than focusing on increasing taxe rates.

@mina @mmm @phneutral

Admittedly the text is more positive than the headline “Tax the rich”. Yet that headline is a simple one that would only appeal to simple, envious minds.

“The rich” is much broader (rich is very much comparative) than “great wealth” used in the text. The issue of course is that those with great wealth are highly mobile and can up sticks and move to other parts of the world.

21 September at 9:50 | Open on universeodon.com
Mina

@chowderman

The argument of the mobility of extremely wealthy persons becomes less convincing, if you consider that e.g. Switzerland has a wealth tax and also, unlike e.g. Germany, taxes capital gains and income from financial and real estate speculation like other income, and yet, the ultra-rich are not leaving the country in hordes.

In fact, this form of taxation has led to overall lower taxes.

BTW: The famous banking secret in Switzerland is long gone.

@mmm @phneutral

21 September at 10:02 | Open on berlin.social
Konafets

@mina Germany has a so called ‚speculation tax‘ on real eastate which is in fact an income tax. As well the „Abgeltungssteuer“ for capital gains when selling stocks.

And your framing of only „extremely wealthy“ or „ultra rich“ persons which are investing in stocks or real estate is one problem I see in this discussion regarding this initiative.
@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 11:37 | Open on norden.social
Chris 🤩 Reinbothe

@Konafets @mina @chowderman @mmm Talking about framings: it is imho a no-brainer that the ultra-rich contribute a larger share to society, but distributed democratically and not at their discretion. We live in a democratic society after all.

Technicalities like which tax is already paid where are just derailing the point of the petition: the ultra-rich are influencing our societies not in a good way.

21 September at 12:23 | Open on ruhr.social
Konafets

@phneutral … and there we are at two core problem with the petition: a lack of understanding/knowledge of the tax system and a lack of definition what (ultra) rich people are. As following the discussion, I found a variety of opinions of who is addressed by „the rich“.

Like in the post to which I answered, where only highly wealthy people own stocks and / real estate. If that is the belief system the petition is driven by, it has a taste of envy and misses the goal completely.

@mina

21 September at 14:33 | Open on norden.social
Chris 🤩 Reinbothe replied to Konafets

@Konafets @mina the proposal is quite detailed imho. Oxfam state on their German campaign website: „Für Deutschland schlagen wir folgendes Steuer-Modell vor: Zwei Prozent auf Vermögen von über fünf Mio. US-Dollar (ca. 4,6 Mio. Euro), drei Prozent auf Vermögen von über 50 Millionen US-Dollar (ca. 46 Mio. Euro) und fünf Prozent für Vermögen, die eine Milliarde US-Dollar übersteigen.“ aktion.oxfam.de/tax-the-rich

21 September at 14:40 | Open on ruhr.social
Mina

@Konafets

I know the German, the British and Swiss tax system very well, and none privileges capital gains over income from work as much as the German system.

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 14:43 | Open on berlin.social
Konafets

@mina Your point was Germany does not tax (in contrary to switzerland) stock and real estate speculations nor income from stocks.

Not only that both is wrong, but now you try to shift your arguments from „there is no such a tax" to „Germany taxes capital income lower than labor income“ (which, by the way, is true).

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 14:59 | Open on norden.social
Mina replied to Konafets

@Konafets

After a certain holding period (depending on circumstances, usually 3 or 10 years) real estate price gains become totally tax free.

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 15:04 | Open on berlin.social
Konafets replied to Mina

@mina So you admit, that there is a speculation tax? @chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 15:08 | Open on norden.social
Mina replied to Konafets

@Konafets

Sure. But it doesn't take the fact away that it is lower than tax on productive income, which sets a terrible incentive for investments.

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 15:12 | Open on berlin.social
Konafets replied to Mina

@mina What is this terrible incentive on investment in your opinion?@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

22 September at 8:39 | Open on norden.social
Mina replied to Konafets

@Konafets

Do I really need to explain it again and again?

Are you deliberately trying to drive me into insanity?

If returns on financial investments are taxed lower than those in labour and entrepreneurial activity (which is the case), the latter two need far higher yields to become competitive.

Why would you invest serious money into building batteries or setting up repair shops, if you can just buy real estate or invest in financial instruments, which

1/2

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

22 September at 10:25 | Open on berlin.social
Mina replied to Mina

@Konafets

provide you with nice returns (until bubble burst), but have absolutely no benefit for society as a whole, except for driving up real estate and stock prices, thus feeding the bubble?

2/2

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

22 September at 10:27 | Open on berlin.social
Konafets replied to Mina

@mina I don’t want to drive you in insanity but want to explore the motivations which drives one into promoting this petition.

Thanks for elaborating your thoughts on this topic.
@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

22 September at 11:00 | Open on norden.social
Mina

@chowderman

The argument of the mobility of extremely wealthy persons becomes less convincing, if you consider that e.g. Switzerland has a wealth tax and also, unlike e.g. Germany, taxes capital gains and income from financial and real estate speculation like other income, and yet, the ultra-rich are not leaving the country in hordes.

In fact, this form of taxation has led to overall lower taxes.

BTW: The famous banking secret in Switzerland is long gone.

@mmm @phneutral

21 September at 10:04 | Open on berlin.social
Mark Mullen

@mina @chowderman @phneutral

I completely agree. Where is the text of specifically what is being asked for? I followed the links but couldn't find it.

21 September at 13:17 | Open on mastodon.sdf.org
Mina

@mmm

I'm now only on mobile. Let me check, when at home on my computer.

@chowderman @phneutral

21 September at 14:50 | Open on berlin.social
Filip
Mark Mullen

@fnohe @mina @chowderman @phneutral

Thank you! So they mention the 1% but nowhere mention the threshold or target amount over which people get taxed, correct?

28 September at 21:41 | Open on mastodon.sdf.org
Mina

@mmm

Of course not!

Setting such figures would be obviously part of the legislative process.

However, in the initiative's FAQ (link below), it is stated that threshold should be set according to the member states' own economic situation, making clear that a family home and liquid assets of about €1M should not be taxed as "wealth".

tax-the-rich.eu/home#faq

@fnohe @chowderman @phneutral

28 September at 21:54 | Open on berlin.social
Mark Mullen

@mina @fnohe @chowderman @phneutral

Great. Sounds good. Thank you.

To help with this, I can of course repost. But which countries does the effort most need help with?

29 September at 6:05 | Open on mastodon.sdf.org
Mina replied to Mark

@mmm

Every vote counts, but Belgium, Spain and Italy are the closest ones to pass their national thresholds. So focussing on these, makes sense.

@fnohe @chowderman @phneutral

29 September at 6:15 | Open on berlin.social
Chowderman 🍴
Chris 🤩 Reinbothe

@chowderman @mina as you are still entangled in the neoliberal narrative of trickle down economics and their like we can agree to disagree at this point, because a conversation would not lead anywhere. GDP as a single point of measurement alone is absolutely outdated.

21 September at 9:01 | Open on ruhr.social
Chowderman 🍴

@phneutral @mina

The facts speak for themselves, EU economies are both highly redistributative and their growth is scleritic. You say that GDP is an outdated measurement but offer no alternative.

Please don’t assume to know what I think of “trickle down economics”, which in any event is a phrase of abuse used by critics of low taxation rather than an accurate description of the theory that proponents of low taxation believe in.

21 September at 9:40 | Open on universeodon.com
Chris 🤩 Reinbothe

@chowderman @mina I don’t have to. You seem like a vivid guy who can search for themselves.

21 September at 9:46 | Open on ruhr.social
Chowderman 🍴

@phneutral

Thank you, I’ll take that as a compliment.

Sadly I do feel the need to be less than generous and point out that my job isn’t to search the internet in order to justify your comments, however civily you make them - sorry.😔

21 September at 9:57 | Open on universeodon.com
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