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Chowderman 🍴

@mina @mmm @phneutral

Admittedly the text is more positive than the headline “Tax the rich”. Yet that headline is a simple one that would only appeal to simple, envious minds.

“The rich” is much broader (rich is very much comparative) than “great wealth” used in the text. The issue of course is that those with great wealth are highly mobile and can up sticks and move to other parts of the world.

It appears to me that maximising the tax income from the wealthy is far more important than focusing on increasing taxe rates.

21 September at 9:50 | Wall-to-wall | Open on universeodon.com
15 comments
Mina

@chowderman

The argument of the mobility of extremely wealthy persons becomes less convincing, if you consider that e.g. Switzerland has a wealth tax and also, unlike e.g. Germany, taxes capital gains and income from financial and real estate speculation like other income, and yet, the ultra-rich are not leaving the country in hordes.

In fact, this form of taxation has led to overall lower taxes.

BTW: The famous banking secret in Switzerland is long gone.

@mmm @phneutral

21 September at 10:02 | Open on berlin.social
Konafets

@mina Germany has a so called ‚speculation tax‘ on real eastate which is in fact an income tax. As well the „Abgeltungssteuer“ for capital gains when selling stocks.

And your framing of only „extremely wealthy“ or „ultra rich“ persons which are investing in stocks or real estate is one problem I see in this discussion regarding this initiative.
@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 11:37 | Open on norden.social
Chris 🤩 Reinbothe

@Konafets @mina @chowderman @mmm Talking about framings: it is imho a no-brainer that the ultra-rich contribute a larger share to society, but distributed democratically and not at their discretion. We live in a democratic society after all.

Technicalities like which tax is already paid where are just derailing the point of the petition: the ultra-rich are influencing our societies not in a good way.

21 September at 12:23 | Open on ruhr.social
Konafets

@phneutral … and there we are at two core problem with the petition: a lack of understanding/knowledge of the tax system and a lack of definition what (ultra) rich people are. As following the discussion, I found a variety of opinions of who is addressed by „the rich“.

Like in the post to which I answered, where only highly wealthy people own stocks and / real estate. If that is the belief system the petition is driven by, it has a taste of envy and misses the goal completely.

@mina

21 September at 14:33 | Open on norden.social
Chris 🤩 Reinbothe replied to Konafets

@Konafets @mina the proposal is quite detailed imho. Oxfam state on their German campaign website: „Für Deutschland schlagen wir folgendes Steuer-Modell vor: Zwei Prozent auf Vermögen von über fünf Mio. US-Dollar (ca. 4,6 Mio. Euro), drei Prozent auf Vermögen von über 50 Millionen US-Dollar (ca. 46 Mio. Euro) und fünf Prozent für Vermögen, die eine Milliarde US-Dollar übersteigen.“ aktion.oxfam.de/tax-the-rich

21 September at 14:40 | Open on ruhr.social
Mina

@Konafets

I know the German, the British and Swiss tax system very well, and none privileges capital gains over income from work as much as the German system.

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 14:43 | Open on berlin.social
Konafets

@mina Your point was Germany does not tax (in contrary to switzerland) stock and real estate speculations nor income from stocks.

Not only that both is wrong, but now you try to shift your arguments from „there is no such a tax" to „Germany taxes capital income lower than labor income“ (which, by the way, is true).

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 14:59 | Open on norden.social
Mina replied to Konafets

@Konafets

After a certain holding period (depending on circumstances, usually 3 or 10 years) real estate price gains become totally tax free.

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 15:04 | Open on berlin.social
Konafets replied to Mina

@mina So you admit, that there is a speculation tax? @chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 15:08 | Open on norden.social
Mina replied to Konafets

@Konafets

Sure. But it doesn't take the fact away that it is lower than tax on productive income, which sets a terrible incentive for investments.

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

21 September at 15:12 | Open on berlin.social
Konafets replied to Mina

@mina What is this terrible incentive on investment in your opinion?@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

22 September at 8:39 | Open on norden.social
Mina replied to Konafets

@Konafets

Do I really need to explain it again and again?

Are you deliberately trying to drive me into insanity?

If returns on financial investments are taxed lower than those in labour and entrepreneurial activity (which is the case), the latter two need far higher yields to become competitive.

Why would you invest serious money into building batteries or setting up repair shops, if you can just buy real estate or invest in financial instruments, which

1/2

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

22 September at 10:25 | Open on berlin.social
Mina replied to Mina

@Konafets

provide you with nice returns (until bubble burst), but have absolutely no benefit for society as a whole, except for driving up real estate and stock prices, thus feeding the bubble?

2/2

@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

22 September at 10:27 | Open on berlin.social
Konafets replied to Mina

@mina I don’t want to drive you in insanity but want to explore the motivations which drives one into promoting this petition.

Thanks for elaborating your thoughts on this topic.
@chowderman @mmm @phneutral

22 September at 11:00 | Open on norden.social
Mina

@chowderman

The argument of the mobility of extremely wealthy persons becomes less convincing, if you consider that e.g. Switzerland has a wealth tax and also, unlike e.g. Germany, taxes capital gains and income from financial and real estate speculation like other income, and yet, the ultra-rich are not leaving the country in hordes.

In fact, this form of taxation has led to overall lower taxes.

BTW: The famous banking secret in Switzerland is long gone.

@mmm @phneutral

21 September at 10:04 | Open on berlin.social
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