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Brodie Robertson

Give me your most controversial Linux takes that nobody wants to admit are actually true.

I'll start, Photoshop isn't actually a big deal for most people and it being missing is easier to complain about than fixing the real issues on the #Linux desktop

88 comments
sowth :debian:

@Hitesh1 @BrodieOnLinux GNOME and KDE are clones of Windows 98, the worst operating system ever made.

Microsoft didn't make it that way because they thought it was a great design. They did it because they were trying to evade antitrust prosecution.

Thijs van Ulden

@BrodieOnLinux you will not notice the difference while gaming using Proton

Ian

@thijsvanulden @BrodieOnLinux sorry wanted to say the opposite. Linux users have different standards about what good performance means :D don't get me wrong I am trying to play most of my games on Linux but Helldivers on my Linux System runs like shit and its a known issue.

Semmelstulle

@thijsvanulden @BrodieOnLinux the difference I DO notice is I'm not held back by Windows or the age of the game.

Matt :opensuse: :xmonad:

@BrodieOnLinux Nobody actually likes Gnome, they're just too lazy to configure KDE.

Kiloku

@thelinuxcast @BrodieOnLinux personally, for some reason I'm deeply afraid that changing my DE will break something in my OS. I never figured what things are dependent on the DE to work.
On the other hand, since I use Pop OS, I'll get COSMIC sometime this year

Tical

@thelinuxcast @BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online Nah I 100% love GNOME. Both stock and PopOS's Cosmic interpretation.

Matt :opensuse: :xmonad:

@BrodieOnLinux Oh, here's another:

Unixporn is just a collection of people who really, really, wish they were using MacOS.

Joshix

@thelinuxcast @BrodieOnLinux many of them use tiling window managers. How would that work on mac?

OpenSauce :gentoo:

@thelinuxcast @BrodieOnLinux I don't necessarily wish I was using MacOS, however I can admit that MacOS has a very appealing design language that I have tried to imitate before

Joel :void: :casio:

@BrodieOnLinux Linux users are just as ignorant as Windows users, they choose to ignore their pain

Sisu Aika

@BrodieOnLinux My hot take is that the only reason Linux is actually succeeding on the desktop is not the community, but Valve and RedHat. Until the Steamdeck hit and Glorious Eggroll pushed proton even further... most people simply didn't care.

Although that's to say nothing about Microsoft cross-promoting Linux on accident by blowing up Windows with AI and ads.

Just my perspective... Linux user since 2002.

75watt

@BrodieOnLinux Cinnamon, Cosmic, Elementary exist because Gnome3 was very bad. But since Gnome 40 Gnome is quite good.

rexi

@75watt @BrodieOnLinux

sure.

who would wait through all that before leaving?

#xfce

revkarol :sway: :i3wm: :linux:

@BrodieOnLinux immutability and sandboxing don't provide extra security/privacy because they can still access my home directory and all I really care about are my files.

TheStroyer

@revkarol @BrodieOnLinux they can't if they are properly sandboxed. Files can only be accessed with file picker dialog

Feng Lengshun

@revkarol I don't think that was the main aim of "immutability". There's a reason why some said "anti-hysteresis" is a better term, because the main point is reliability and predictability. Even with package managers, update issues can still happen - the point being to resist* improper updates that breaks the system and makes rollback easier.

*(not proof, much like how true waterproofing is not practical for most products)

nth_project

@revkarol @BrodieOnLinux sandboxing, like in the case of flatpak, can keep your home directory private from programs.

JP

@BrodieOnLinux A decent chunk is only using Linux because it's not <insert mainstream desktop OS here>.

Aunty

@BrodieOnLinux the amount of customisation available to desktop Linux is the reason it is always going to be too scary for newcomers to become mainstream

sotolf

@BrodieOnLinux Most people using linux just play being special, and doesn't even learn how to use any of the features that makes it linux, and could just as well have used anything else.

Bryan Haskin

@BrodieOnLinux Linux isn't hard and will work great for most people's needs. It's usually the distro that is the issue.

šŸ“ /home/zlendy

@BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online The performance benefits of using linux-zen over the default kernel on Arch for gaming are likely placebo.

benny windolph

@BrodieOnLinux systemd and wayland are necessary and good.

šŸ“ /home/zlendy

@BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online If ZFS was GPL'd nobody in their right mind would bother using btrfs

Jacek Rode

@BrodieOnLinux ā€œFlatpak is not a distributionā€

Source:

Hari Rana, ā€œDevelopers are lazy, thus Flatpakā€ tesk.page/2023/06/04/response-

Ulises Lafuente Ramos

@BrodieOnLinux of course, its Clip Studio the one that its important.

adingbatponder

@BrodieOnLinux Linux is popular because it does not allow users to do/install most things, and so prevents 99% of computer problems.

Momo

@BrodieOnLinux
People believe by optimizing compiler flags to their CPUs they can make bad code run better. That's why Gentoo exist.

The same people ignore the fact that compiling their own updates everytime converts hours of their lifetime into them staring at a console with endless scrolling lines of text output.

(Hi, I was a Gentoo user for 10 years and configured my own kernels from source)
@Madic

@BrodieOnLinux
People believe by optimizing compiler flags to their CPUs they can make bad code run better. That's why Gentoo exist.

The same people ignore the fact that compiling their own updates everytime converts hours of their lifetime into them staring at a console with endless scrolling lines of text output.

its_a_me

@momo @BrodieOnLinux @Madic That's not why gentoo exists? I run gentoo with the dist-kernel and tons on binpkgs. I use it for the different profile options and USE flags

Sebastian :fedora:

@BrodieOnLinux tiling window managers are overrated and you waste more time customizing than working (I was an i3 user)

TheStroyer

@BrodieOnLinux Linuxā€‹ is not ready for regular desktop users

Antifa Franklin šŸ‡µšŸ‡ø

@BrodieOnLinux systemd is fine, Wayland is fine, gnome is fine, foss software alternatives to Office and Adobe CS are all at best meh.

Antifa Franklin šŸ‡µšŸ‡ø

@laurailway @BrodieOnLinux it's fine, but if you work a lot with Excel in a professional capacity then the difference is stark. Good for basic functionality bad for large scale data modelling/analysis.

The word processor might be good, idk I never touch that stuff.

Laura

@yaldi @BrodieOnLinux
That's fair, I don't work with spreadsheets on a professional level so I have no idea

Antifa Franklin šŸ‡µšŸ‡ø

@laurailway @BrodieOnLinux I actually use only office calc at home for quick tasks like budgets and working out expenses. It's probably good for 99% home users, but just can't do the big stuff (which is fine, it's foss, I get it).

Andre

@BrodieOnLinux These days, there's no much reliability difference between Linux and Windows Server.

Akseli :quake_verified:ā€‹ :kde:

@BrodieOnLinux its easier to make a game on windows and run it with wine than it is to make a native linux game

TSource Engine Query
@BrodieOnLinux there are only few basic distros for specific tasks that matter, everything else is waste of time.
Feng Lengshun

@BrodieOnLinux here's mine: Linux users are as lazy as Windows users - in fact, I'd go one step further and say that they're mostly the same.

You'll see the same kind of whining between both communities. They just whine about or ignore different stuff and for most of them, it's just arbitrary what they care or don't care about.

It's only when they encounter enough problems to stop being lazy and actually experience new stuff that they start to meaningfully change their opinions.

Health Is Wealth

@BrodieOnLinux Too many to list but off the top of my head:
- Linux distribution snobbery & mockery of other distributions is very real (each to their own).
- Linux users who state they 'hate' Gnome/KDE/Systemd/Snap/Flatpak etc are very poor at explaining to others 'exactly' why that is (always seems a personal preference reason than any technical failings).
- Linux 'desktop' dominance race was over decades ago. The race finished & everyone went home & moved on (Windows won BTW, unfortunately).

Ownoh

@BrodieOnLinux most linux users don't know, or honestly don't care, what the kernel is.

lily šŸ³ļøā€āš§ļø

@BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online yeah my take was pretty much yours. complaining about foss software like gimp, kdenlive, and other useful programs, does fuck all to fix them.

Antifa Franklin šŸ‡µšŸ‡ø

@BrodieOnLinux if gnome would introduce custom accent and folder colours, then I'd be 100% fine with the level of customisation avaliable in that DE.

Riedler

@BrodieOnLinux gnome and KDE people are arrogant fucks who can't leave each other live in peace with each other's choice of DE

screenshot of the above post with two replies, one saying &quot;gnome is better than KDE&quot;, the other &quot;nobody actually likes gnome, they&#39;re just too lazy to configure KDE&quot;
Riedler

@BrodieOnLinux Linux is not usable for the average person because Linux people love to gatekeep stuff amongst themselves.

mkj

@BrodieOnLinux Present-day Linux and Windows are actually quite similar in terms of user-friendliness.

However, whereas a lot of people are "used to" Windows and therefore put up with constant changes including stuff being moved around; also a lot of people mentally freeze up at the mention of "Linux" and give up without ever even trying because it is not named Windows. If they tried, they would likely find all of the things they typically do working quite well on Linux.

Yes, exceptions exist.

Paul L

@BrodieOnLinux
When someone says that window managers are inherently superior to desktop environments (as a blanket statement)

- or that WMs are some kind of natural progression for advanced users while only beginners stay with DEs.

But then spend hours trying to recreate types of functionality that already just work automatically and integrated well in the DE that they were mocking.

TheFrenchGhosty

@prlzx @BrodieOnLinux I don't use a WM, but you're missing the point of them: tiling

Paul L

@TheFrenchGhosty @BrodieOnLinux
You might not have picked up on the intent of the response to Brodie's invite in effect deliberately make provocative posts (mostly in jest with an element of truth).

To be clear I am in no way knocking WMs and people should use whatever they like anyway.

It was a comment on how trendy coverage sometimes verges towards sneering at DE users as inherently less advanced but then post an hour long video recreating some feature manually that would be built (...)

Paul L

@TheFrenchGhosty @BrodieOnLinux into a DE.

Besides I meant WMs as the generic concept and not the more specific class of tiling WMs. I mean Blackbox, Openbox and their derivatives are also WMs and I respect what they do.

Majid Iqbal

@BrodieOnLinux thereā€™s no decent IDE nor email client on Linux

Hannes

@akinzekeel @BrodieOnLinux If you don't like any of the IDEs on Linux then which IDE do you like?

Paul L

@BrodieOnLinux
How some people will seek out discussions with news about distribution or application they apparently hate (they always have a list)

- but then it turns out the only valid criticisms they have are recycled from years ago and since addressed

-then it turns out they never tried it recently

Piwochlap

@BrodieOnLinux 1) Hating snaps is no longer driven by the merit of this technology. Itā€™s simply socially unacceptable in the community to like snaps or even to admit some of them may have their use cases. 2) When people donā€™t like a distro, but arenā€™t able to precisely explain why, some of them say itā€™s ā€œbloatedā€ and consider it the end of the discussion.

the esoteric programmer

@BrodieOnLinux wayland isn't really what it's cooked up to be, even though it has been decided it's the future of the linux desktop, and it could be eventually, if these issues are solved, because the fundamental architecture isn't flawed. The rest of the toot is elaborating that sentiment. This is a very long post because it also details a case I know well about trying to introduce new protocols to wayland, so if you're reading this, it's recommended you read it to the end.

First, differences in compositors and how they implement things, each compositor could implement a different set of protocols, and even what it implements from the protocols list could have its own quirks, which makes it incompatible with current implementations in other compositors.

Then, the effort required to build a wayland compositor from scratch is huge and wlroots isn't always an option because not everyone wants to be writing that in C, though I understand that's not so much of a problem, since so many xorg window managers are just forks of a previous project.

The biggest one though, accessibility took an enormous hit with the keybindings and the snooping on each other applications could do on x11 gone, so now overlays for specific disabilities are impossible to be done externally, and therefore tailored for each use case, they have to be built in the compositor, if the compositor maintainers even agree it's a necessity in the first place, which is also problematic because it's not always the case that our needs are understood, and as such, that our patches for such needs would be merged upstream, and as everyone knows, forking is costly, so that's not a better option either.

Of course, then we go on to more general issues, such as IMEs for japanese, chinese, etc not working properly anymore, and generally neesh software which a couple people used, or even made, to solve a problem, doesn't work anymore in wayland, and if we want it to work again, we have to go through a very specific, ahem, dance.

Well...first things first, making a protocol which should conform to a lot of unwritten dogmas about how security should be done in wayland, beyond the obvious, so then that means spending time around the wayland protocol trackers to learn what the community generally wants and is written nowhere, to increase the chance of the protocol being merged that is.
Then comes the only mildly annoying part, making the xml files for the protocol by hand, which isn't necesarily the most pleasent thing to do either, but not as bad as the next part.

Of course, the final part, getting the protocol in a pull request or an issue, only to find out that first, you gotta sort through a huge number of comments, and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about because you yourself saw what's in a typical protocol proposal, and then to hopefully find out that either your protocol is silently just not merged, it is but no one wants to implement it, or someone kindly telling you that there are lots of security concerns with your protocol and back to the drawing board you go.

A friend of mine went and did the whole dance, trying to find a solution for at least one problem in the screenreader accessibility case plagueing wayland users, the key event capturing, to then be sent to an assistive technology the user configured, like in, say, any other operating system with accessibility support that I can name.

He went to the gnome accessibility matrix room, and both of us along with some of the gnome people tryed to make a way to do it. It took the form of two meetings, I believe they happened last year or so, in one I was there, in the other it was the other way round.

So, we tryed with a portal first, modifying a bit the global shortcuts one to provide screenreader semantics better, for example to consider capslock a screenreader modifier. Then, that didn't work, so he went back to the drawing board, tryed to make a wayland protocol for this, which was kinda simplistic at first, but then gained in complexity.

He almost implemented it in mutter, except that xkb_common doesn't support capslock as a modifier, which is required for screenreaders, because that, aside from insert which is also not a modifier in the actual sense of the word, is the only other modifier applications and desktop environments don't use, that's why screenreader commands usually begin with that key.

The next step in this, of course, is to follow the chainin of events, and file an issue with xkb_common, which is exactly what he did.

In the above mentioned xkb_common issue, we found out it's actually very complicated, more so than we expected, it's not really closed but we know progress is hard to get done, if at all.

So then, probably odilia, the new linux screenreader which is in like less than alpha stage, will still use evdev for the time being, untill hopefully the new wayland based accessibility stack which is coming out will mature enough to replace at-spi, and will hopefully have the right extension points for us, even though it can be a way harder thing to support for wayland compositor developers, with yet one more thing they have to add every time they make a new compositor.

So yeah, I'll continue to use wayland from time to time, and some days use a plasma session entirely with wayland just because, however, these issues are a real bummer all round, worst of all when it comes to accessibility, which could make the desktop for some people, depending if they use lots of gtk4 applications, entirely impossible to use with any semblance of productivity.

@BrodieOnLinux wayland isn't really what it's cooked up to be, even though it has been decided it's the future of the linux desktop, and it could be eventually, if these issues are solved, because the fundamental architecture isn't flawed. The rest of the toot is elaborating that sentiment. This is a very long post because it also details a case I know well about trying to introduce new protocols to wayland, so if you're reading this, it's recommended you read it to the end.

Skyflare

@BrodieOnLinux Gnome developers are free to follow their own vision and the fact that they are that large and popular implies that it's good for a lot of people

Rokosun

@BrodieOnLinux

I use Artix Linux as my daily driver, which is basically just Arch Linux but without systemd. But I don't hate systemd tho, in fact I'm one of the developers of TROMjaro - a linux distro based on Manjaro. Oh yes, we forked Manjaro everyone! šŸ˜ Here is the website - tromjaro.com

Sandy Corzeta

@BrodieOnLinux@linuxrocks.online Global Menu like macOS actually have a benefit of saving the screen estate (props to Unity). It is sad that most popular Linux DE that i have known always being edgy to their own niche and not following this UX that actually just works since the 80's.

waffles :gentoo:

@BrodieOnLinux the unix philosophy and posix compliance is a big reason as to why bsd is so far behind Linux development wise, and if we adhered to it we'd still be at 0% marketshare

Paul L

@BrodieOnLinux
It can look like there is much argument about design choices across Linux desktops.
Meanwhile for all the gripes about Microsoft (valid or otherwise) they did actually put some thought into Human/User Interface Guidelines for Windows (more apparent in earlier editions) and there are Linux / FOSS projects that would benefit from the same discipline.

Notably including the Principle of Least Surprise, when thinking about all the ways you could perform a task.

@BrodieOnLinux
It can look like there is much argument about design choices across Linux desktops.
Meanwhile for all the gripes about Microsoft (valid or otherwise) they did actually put some thought into Human/User Interface Guidelines for Windows (more apparent in earlier editions) and there are Linux / FOSS projects that would benefit from the same discipline.

Kuchenmampfer

@BrodieOnLinux
All of these things don't matter because normal people use whatever was preinstalled anyways

Miguel Beltran :flutter:

@BrodieOnLinux wayland by default is very bad and any distro that targets general population should never use it

Phantomwise

@BrodieOnLinux You don't ACTUALLY need neofetch in your bashrc. Or at all.

Phantomwise

@BrodieOnLinux Desktop environments are not necessarily simpler to use and configure than window managers.

I tried kde and it was hell. It's all so overcomplicated and confusing... I think it mostly depends on the user. Back to hyprland for me, which at least preserves my sanity. We're very happy and are going to make lots of baby tiled windows together.

TheFrenchGhosty

@BrodieOnLinux Linux (and not just the kernel) is almost all corporation, and the independent stuff is used as free work for corporation

And people seems fine with it...

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