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Jan Wildeboer ๐Ÿ˜ท:krulorange:

#WhereIsMySurprisedFace

Facebook/Meta starts talking about the "Extend" phase of Embrace, Extend, Extinguish as predicted:

"โ€œYou could imagine an extension to the protocol eventually โ€” of saying like, โ€˜I want to support micropayments,โ€™ or โ€ฆ like, โ€˜hey, feel free to show me ads, if that supports you.โ€™ Kind of like a way for you to self-label or self-opt-in. That would be great,โ€

techcrunch.com/2024/04/25/why-

56 comments
๐“ผ๐“ฎ๐“ป๐“ช๐“น๐“ช๐“ฝ๐“ฑใ€ใƒ„ใ€‘โ˜ฎ(๐Ÿ“๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง)

@jwildeboer

yes and it will happen.
the big tech standard bodies are theirs anyway and it is what fediverse embraces.

if an instqnce doesnt, it left the generally accepted consensus mechanism i suppose.

whata your take on defending against this?

Jan Wildeboer ๐Ÿ˜ท:krulorange:

@serapath Have a strong standard that doesn't allow for such extensions. I've been saying that since many years.

๐“ผ๐“ฎ๐“ป๐“ช๐“น๐“ช๐“ฝ๐“ฑใ€ใƒ„ใ€‘โ˜ฎ(๐Ÿ“๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง)

@jwildeboer
But even if you had a strong standard.
Isnt the point that codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src still collaborates with W3C?

Hope it stays independent enough and will be able to protect against these kinds of attacks ๐Ÿ™‚

smallcircles (Humanity Now ๐Ÿ•Š)

@serapath @jwildeboer

Yes, as co-facilitator of #FEP, that is the point. Highly in favor of a bottom-up 3-phase standards process designed to guarantee an open ecosystem and tech landscape. Wrote a bunch about that on #SocialHub:

socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/

Yet it is hard.. as it happens and in typical grassroots social dynamics, everyone tends to care most about their own shop.

Much to the benefit of any large corporation practicing EE or #EEE, I should add. Meta is already king.

@serapath @jwildeboer

Yes, as co-facilitator of #FEP, that is the point. Highly in favor of a bottom-up 3-phase standards process designed to guarantee an open ecosystem and tech landscape. Wrote a bunch about that on #SocialHub:

socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/

silverpill

@serapath @jwildeboer FEP process doesn't prevent people from extending the protocol, in fact it has the opposite goal. But it protects Fediverse by decentralizing standards development. It doesn't dictate what is a standard and what is not, instead developers decide for themselves which FEPs they want to implement, and eventually some FEPs may become de-facto standards

๐“ผ๐“ฎ๐“ป๐“ช๐“น๐“ช๐“ฝ๐“ฑใ€ใƒ„ใ€‘โ˜ฎ(๐Ÿ“๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง)

@silverpill @jwildeboer i am mich in favor of everything becoming a de-facto standard.

if works and we dont need anything else.
it just means, the ppl have voted by adoption.
thats enough. no need for some self proclaimed authorities

Evan Prodromou

@jwildeboer @serapath I don't think this is possible with ActivityPub.

It might work with a much more centralized design, and with some very heavy cryptographic intervention. But even then, I'm not sure.

All protocols are extensible. Good protocols include a structured mechanism for extensibility; bad ones don't.

Evan Prodromou

@jwildeboer @serapath and are you specifically saying that you'd want to prevent commercial activity on the fediverse at the protocol level?

That's something that's much more enforceable at the social layer, with server policies.

Evan Prodromou

@jwildeboer @serapath

From reading over your thread, I feel like there may be some values that you think are implicit in the fediverse, and that you want to enforce at the protocol level.

It may be worthwhile to a) enumerate what those values are (non-commercial, FLOSS?, ...) and consider other structures for advocacy or enforcement.

Evan Prodromou

@jwildeboer @serapath The main parallel I can think of here is amateur radio. In the US, and I think in many countries, ham radio bands are restricted to non-commercial use. Part of the licensing procedure is learning what kind of transmissions are considered non-commercial. And participants enforce the requirements with each other. It would be hard to enforce these rules at the protocol or equipment level, though.

@infosec_jcp ๐Ÿˆ๐Ÿƒ done differently

@jwildeboer

XMPP Eยณ vibeZ. Like everywhere else they can make suggestions but the community will decide which is best for their instance.

They are already heavily blocked by a TON of the #fediverse already. I started blocking their whole domain Jan 1st, 2024 to start the new year off right after Adam M. from InstaCSAM came on to gaslight with his ' video introduction '. I waited but that was enough.

That company is fsckD & run by a haole
โš ๏ธ๐Ÿ‘‡
infosec.exchange/@infosec_jcp/
โš ๏ธ๐Ÿ‘‡
infosec.exchange/@infosec_jcp/

Fsck that PedoHarvardAlum childabuse CSAM network host, 1 is FB, 2 is InstaCSAM.
โš ๏ธ๐Ÿ‘‡
infosec.exchange/@infosec_jcp/

@jwildeboer

XMPP Eยณ vibeZ. Like everywhere else they can make suggestions but the community will decide which is best for their instance.

They are already heavily blocked by a TON of the #fediverse already. I started blocking their whole domain Jan 1st, 2024 to start the new year off right after Adam M. from InstaCSAM came on to gaslight with his ' video introduction '. I waited but that was enough.

Felipe :wyd:

@jwildeboer
Why aren't we blocking threads already?
What are we waiting for?
#fediblock #fedipact

Ooze ๐“Ÿ

@Felipe_B @jwildeboer Because @Gargron is so naive he though this would never happen.

always tired (moved to chaos)

@Ooze @Felipe_B @jwildeboer

In my experience it's not only @Gargron . Otherwise more of the rest of Fedi would at least have defederated (and possibly enabled authorized fetch).

Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

@project1enigma Yeah it's not only Gargron. But since such a sizeable portion of the Fedi (by user numbers) is Mastodon, and Mastodon is run overwhelmingly by Gargron's will, it is very much to do with Gargron. @Ooze @Felipe_B

always tired (moved to chaos)

@tokyo_0 @Ooze @Felipe_B Gargron has no influence on the moderation policy of say this server here (wandering dot shop, running vanilla Mastodon), for example.

Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

@project1enigma Not sure if a message was lost here, but while you're right that he doesn't influence your moderation policy or the settings you choose, he chooses what settings are available to you within the Mastodon software. For months he has been undermining opposition to Meta by making statements about Mastodon's technical capabilities that are not supported by its actual technical capabilities. People believe him, because he's Gargron. He shapes a lot of things. @Ooze @Felipe_B

Jan Wildeboer ๐Ÿ˜ท:krulorange:

(And this will in turn enable more divide and conquer. Also part of the usual strategy to break a movement that is perceived as a possible threat by big organisations)

Jan Wildeboer ๐Ÿ˜ท:krulorange:

"It's not our evil plan, you people are already doing it" is the typical argument for Divide and Conquer. Unsurprisingly they bring that argument too:

"For instance, fediverse advocate and co-editor of ActivityPub Evan Prodromou @evan created a paid Mastodon account (@evanplus) that users could subscribe to for $5 per month to gain access. If heโ€™s on board with paid content, surely others would follow."

(the irony being of course that Evan did this with standard ActivityPub, no changes needed)

Jan Wildeboer ๐Ÿ˜ท:krulorange:

I have raised the alarm bell already several years ago. Explained how the (at that time mostly dormant) Working Group at the W3C that is responsible for #ActivityPub must be reinvigorated (that happened) and must became a loud defender of the #fediverse (that didn't happen) or else we risk losing our ecosystem to fragmentation and infighting.

Jan Wildeboer ๐Ÿ˜ท:krulorange:

And that infighting is already visible in the comments. Divide and conquer always works and costs close to nothing. Unfortunately.

Kevin Karhan :verified:

@jwildeboer that's why it's being done.

Also there's neither penalty nor deterrence to doing so...

ClaraBlackInk

@jwildeboer Ads and advertising are (unfortunately) too much of a wedge.

I see it with creative folks who argue that they need to eat. And they're not wrong but it's incredibly nuanced in social spaces.

There's a big risk of losing a sense of any space where you just connect with other people when everything is just reaching into your wallet.

Mutual aid and people sharing their work (which deserves compensation) is different but all money looks the same to people seeking to maximize profit.

bugwitched ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‡๐Ÿฆจ ๐ŸŽƒ๐Ÿง™๐Ÿธ

@clarablackink @jwildeboer #fedipact does not prevent people from maintaining a presence on fb/threads, which still dwarfs the entire fediverse in size. that fact is simultaneously why defederation is imperative, and why it should be no real loss

ClaraBlackInk

@bug @jwildeboer You're right and I think there are plenty of people who grasp this.

It's just that there's a marketing mindset that sees any empty wall as ad space and it requires a certain amount of community awareness and vigilance to say, "this isn't ad space", especially when someone can begin to throw large enough quantities of cash at it.

I think sometimes well meaning people get caught up in that marketing mindset without grasping what gets lost.

ClaraBlackInk

@bug @jwildeboer To say nothing of bad faith actors like Facebook. I was on Instagram before they acquired it, I hate that they're doing this again over here.

bugwitched ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‡๐Ÿฆจ ๐ŸŽƒ๐Ÿง™๐Ÿธ

@clarablackink @jwildeboer all it takes is recognizing that the wall is not actually empty, it's already inhabited by cultures (insert a fungus or moss analogy here)

April
@jwildeboer as a long time AP dev there is a long story about why we are at such a position of fragmentation we are right now and we at Lysand started to call it the "Mastodon situation"..
Here a citation from a unpublished version of our webpage:
The Mastodon Situation

It turns out that if you write a fully compliant ActivityPub server, it's not going to be able to federate with any of the major instances. This is because the base specification is not very useful, as it is missing a lot of features that are necessary for a modern social media platform.

For example, Mastodon has a feature called "custom emojis", which allows users to upload their own emojis. This is not part of the ActivityPub specification, so if you write a server that is fully compliant with the specification, it won't be able to display custom emojis.

In fact, Mastodon has diverged so much from the base specification that it becomes very difficult to write a server that can federate with it. Some issues caused by this divergence are sometimes not even documented, leading to unexplained errors.

Complexity

Another issue with the Fediverse/ActivityPub is that it uses complex data structures that are difficult to work with, such as the JSON-LD format. This in turn makes it develop to create new software that integrates with the Fediverse.


Thats why I joined a collective effort to develop Lysand as alternative, easier protocol to Activitypub, with tooling that makes it completly compatible with Activitypub using a Compatibility layer, because this fragmentation really hurts the community and the fediverse as a whole.
@jwildeboer as a long time AP dev there is a long story about why we are at such a position of fragmentation we are right now and we at Lysand started to call it the "Mastodon situation"..
Here a citation from a unpublished version of our webpage:
Evan Prodromou

@jwildeboer why do you think the SocialCG should be a defender of the fediverse?

What does defending the fediverse mean to you?

Ocรฉane

@jwildeboer Hi, genuine question because I don't want to loudly splain people. Why are you specifically mentioning EEE and not privatization?

Kevin Karhan :verified:

@jwildeboer that's why the #FediPact is important and I'd stress that sooner or later it'll be necessary to defederate not just #NSAbook / #StadiBook but instances that federate with them!

chris

@jwildeboer The main problem isn't meta. The problem is big "free" as in "free beer" Fedi instances cosplaying as platform capitalists. At this point, I don't really care anymore if they're doing it because they're stupidly-naive af, for their own little fascist agenda and/or to sell out eventually. This shitshow has to end for fedi to survive.

Bernd Paysan R.I.P Natenom ๐Ÿ•ฏ๏ธ

@jwildeboer If ads are opt-in parts of the protocol, and not shown and not spread around when I'm not in Meta, that's perfect.

Jan Wildeboer ๐Ÿ˜ท:krulorange:

@forthy42 What will happen in that case is that they will claim they can, unfortunately, not allow your instance to federate with them as your instance does not meet the minimal requirements wrt support for whatever extension they deem necessary.

And as they talk a lot about moderation, they could even g0 as far to say that only instances that pay for their (Metas) moderation work are allowed to federate. Which can be for free if you "just" support their tracking, ad and other extensions.

Bernd Paysan R.I.P Natenom ๐Ÿ•ฏ๏ธ

@jwildeboer I have no problems NOT to federate with scumbags, anyhow.

BTW: thinking about that, it has become increasingly difficult to operate your own E-Mail server, and federating with scumbags (GMail, Outlook) is one of the bigger problem. They want to be the only game in town.

Hein Ragas

@jwildeboer LOL, as if anyone would run a Fediverse instance with those "features" enabled. The idea of the Extend phase is that the extensions are useful and people want to use them!

Richard A

@jwildeboer "Feel free to show me ads"... No, don't feel free to show me ads. i know how social media evolves. "Show ads on 'blah'", and then 'blah' finds a way to inject into our streams across all instances... and then we're back to using pi-holes. Not that I stopped using my pi-hole.

apemantus

@jwildeboer Paiderated user experience in the paidiverse.

They dream of zombies who will ask to see ads, advertisersโ€™ sweet nirvana.

Fabio Manganiello

@jwildeboer Iโ€™m honestly ok with some of the ideas outlined in that interview.

Content monetization is a topic that has been floating around on #ActivityPub implementations long before Zuckโ€™s helpers considered playing with it.

@dansup already toyed with the idea a year ago.

@Techaltar recently also brought up the topic in his series of Fediverse interviews.

And creators like @thelinuxEXP have mentioned multiple times that the lack of financial incentives to post their content on e.g. PeerTube vs. YouTube acts as a deterrent for many.

And the Fediverse community in general has already a strong sense of โ€œreward-basedโ€ ethics - many already make LibrePay/Patreon donations to their instance admins and favourite content creators, so why not embed such ability in the protocol itself and bypass the middlemen?

Allowing micropayments in ActivityPub (per-post, one-off, recurrent etc.) would actually attract many creators who are currently stuck against their will on proprietary platforms, are at the mercy of YouTubeโ€™s mercurial monetization algorithms, donโ€™t have much freedom in deciding how they want to get paid, and have to give back a non-negligible share of their revenue to the platform itself.

Imagine instead a world where micropayments are handled at protocol level itself, a piece of content or a profile that requires the user to make a payment would transparently respond with an HTTP 402, the money would move from the donorโ€™s account to the contributorโ€™s without any middlemen to shave off profits, no external algorithms are in charge of what can be monetized and how, and creators donโ€™t even have to worry about posting the same content across multiple different platforms because ActivityPub would take care of the whole distribution problem. I canโ€™t think of a better silver bullet to get content creators to do the jump.

The thing is that if we donโ€™t implement this right on the protocol level because we oppose commercialization on ideological grounds, then Threads may implement it anyway on their version of ActivityPub (and then yes, itโ€™d really be E-E-E), and content creators who do content creation as a job have one more reason to avoid the Fediverse.

Iโ€™ve got a bit more of a mixed feeling about ads instead. Thereโ€™s sensitivity on the Fediverse about donations and micropayments, but almost everyone here hates the ad-based business model to the core. If the payments idea and implementation works right, then I donโ€™t think we need to pollute our walls with such low-quality littering. Iโ€™m happy to leave that to Threads if they want to implement it, because I really donโ€™t see much of added value in it and I donโ€™t see why anybody out there would like that idea.

@jwildeboer Iโ€™m honestly ok with some of the ideas outlined in that interview.

Content monetization is a topic that has been floating around on #ActivityPub implementations long before Zuckโ€™s helpers considered playing with it.

@dansup already toyed with the idea a year ago.

@Techaltar recently also brought up the topic in his series of Fediverse interviews.

Martin Hamilton

@jwildeboer Tech bros always trying to speed run the product decay cycle these days...

Evan Prodromou

@jwildeboer extensions have always been a part of the ActivityPub design.

w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core

Extensions in ActivityPub are optional.

nigel
@jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net yep. No surprises there.

Except to those that will still be crying out "no that's not what they mean!" as the enshittification clearly sets in all about them.
nigel
Also, fuck techcrunch for that dark pattern bullshit of putting an article snippet with Read More at the end, so you load that new article thinking you're showing more of the same article.

@jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net
Sebin Nyshkim :drgn_happy:

@jwildeboer So they want to turn Fedi into yet another content mill they can put a toll booth on, wrapped in a bunch of corporate soft-speak to elicit soft and fuzzy feelings while speedrunning the tragedy of the commons again

Got it

DELETED

@jwildeboer the only reason this fediverse stuff is the future of social media is because it doesn't include the way of doing social media that meta and twitter are. The second they try coming in here, we shut it all down and move it over and open it all back up without them

Kierkrampusgaanks regretfully

@jwildeboer and the funny thing is that thereโ€™s almost no chance any of the embracinginstances will profit from the association in the end

Maike

@jwildeboer I tried to understand, bit all I read is, how meta might be giving all those nice little tools and "experiences" to the fediverse, so we can eventually start making money. Because that's what life is all about.
But what is in it for meta? What do they gain by decentralized federated network?

:mastodon: Ric Harvey ๐Ÿ‡ช๐Ÿ‡บ๐ŸŒ๐Ÿ’š

@jwildeboer what if as a community we take control of this narrative and out innovate the corporateโ€™s in order to keep this open to all and prevent centralised control? We find a way to incentivise content creators thatโ€™s built in and non intrusive. Could we put together an open forum on this, Iโ€™m happy to help with servers and tech support to enable this discussion.

Jan Wildeboer ๐Ÿ˜ท:krulorange:

@Ric I sketched a possible solution using what already exists at social.wildeboer.net/@jwildebo I think that a very simple proof of concept can be spun up in a few hours, using an existing Patreon account and OAuth. Extending from there to a more decentralised way of handling the flow of money will be far more complex. But the basics are already available, IMHO.

Cody :collar: :verified_paw:

@jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net I mean tbf, neither of those extensions would be very useful for the general population of the fediverse, and threads is at a poit right now where they don't even support most of the functionality of general fediverse...

lily ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€โšง๏ธ

@jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net oh yeah, they'll extend the protocol, but they won't implement it properly

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