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yosh

To the surprise of nobody whose worked on any collaborative projects at scale β€” people with toxic styles of engagement burn out the people actually doing the work and negatively affect the entire project.

This paper is specifically about Wikipedia, but like no shot this doesn’t apply to open source as well:

academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/art

24 comments
zl2tod

@yosh
I've never had any non-toxic engagement from wikipedia editors.
From my perspective wikipedia's culture is toxic.

πŸ’‘πš‚π—†π–Ίπ—‹π—π—†π–Ίπ—‡ π™°π—‰π—‰π—ŒπŸ“±

@zl2tod @yosh
Yeah, there's things in there I absolutely could correct (textbook references, etc.), but I've seen multiple times where an admin has backed out something correct, and I'm not investing time into something that might get undone by 1 person's whims (so, in 1 case, so far, I just wrote my own Mastodon thread about it instead). I always say Wikipedia is "like an encyclopedia" in the same way that Madonna is like a virgin.

GraniteGeek

@yosh I've edited on wikipedia for 15 years and, especially in the beginning, I did my share of assho - er, toxic interactions. I know I drove away one editor.

There's something about the anonymity of online typing that brings out the jerk in people.

Thaiis Thei π“Ÿ

@GraniteGeek @yosh The thing has a name! It is called The Greater Internet Fuckwit Theory. That's a technical term. 😳 It is caused by the removal of the ability to punch people in the mouth. I mean, the lack of physical presence makes it easy to dehumanise the other. Plus they can't thump you.

Genders: ♾️, πŸŸͺβ¬›πŸŸ©; Soni L.

@yosh we still think we can work together to get toxic contributors (or community members who steal our work) to leave.

(maybe "by any means necessary" isn't the best approach, but also... we think we ran out of options tbh.)

Thaiis Thei π“Ÿ

@SoniEx2 @yosh Governance at Wikipedia is the root of this. I.e. the lack of it.

dogpile

@yosh you must work for the government

NewsGoth Condensed

@yosh As a manager, I had to terminate someone who was talented but also toxic (as in, people coming to my office in tears over what that person had done to them). My management chain at the time supported me but they were replaced by others who held the situation against *me* and ultimately pushed me out. I think they only saw the talent and not the toxicity. In other words, this shouldn't be a hard problem to solve but often is.

Ampelios

@newsgoth @yosh In one exit interview I had to be very careful not to throw my boss under the bus and suggest delicately instead, "Well... She didn't seem very surprised by ToxicBro's behavior."

HR was clearly quivering over a potential lawsuit like "how can we change your mind?" IDK be less sexist, this ain't my problem anymore, the movers are called, you have long known the bro who is the problem. Do better next time, byeee.

Berkubernetus

@yosh ... or any group project of any kind, really.

Hannu Ikonen, MD

@yosh This explains why in my solitude as 100% work from home, Ive not even come close to burning out in comparison to the q6 months cycle of in person drag.

Pax Ahimsa Gethen

@yosh

Wow, 57 million comments analyzed for this study.

cc @wikipedia

Seans

@yosh I'm not surprised. People who enter a cycle of negativity are too busy being negative to contribute. The question isn't about what they're doing, but how the rest of us can facilitate them becoming valued contributors.

Negative Kelvin

@yosh I bin people into three groups: assholes, people who tolerate assholes, and people who don't tolerate assholes.

You have to choose between the latter and the former. Not enforcing your choice means you get assholes.

WagesOf

@yosh I exited an open source project just this week after going around five times with a new contributor about their communication style.

I don't need that in my life and if the person controlling the project wants toxic assholes their project can be only toxic assholes.

Cassian [main]

@yosh I feel like in my experience this is all true in contributing to Wikipedia, contributing to the coding/design of Mastodon, posting on Mastodon........

girl reaction β­οΈπŸ”°πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡ΈπŸ‡΅πŸ‡­

@yosh Absolutely true for me. I found Wikipedia to be an extremely toxic environment, and quickly abandoned any ideas about being a regular editor.

Dustin Mitchell

@yosh this is easy to forget but so important when thinking about how to handle early signs of toxicity in community members.

Nicole Parsons

@yosh

Such workplaces have demonstrated higher employee turnover, higher recruiting costs, higher absenteeism, higher medical care costs, and even higher rates of heart attacks & strokes with such individuals.

Negative people spoil it for everyone.

Adopt a private & personal credo of "The No Asshole Rule" and improve the quality of life for everyone.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No.

GreenSkyOverMe (Monika)

@yosh What do you mean by β€žlike no shotβ€œ?

Joan Westenberg

@yosh Astute. And it's also why every DAO has fallen over in the crypto space.

John Allsopp

@yosh will attest that it occurs frequently in my experience in volunteer organizations of all kinds.

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