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22 comments
Hector Martin

Tested 12.4 and 13.5 on M2 MBA, sounds just as bad, so this has been going on for a *long* time now.

M1 MBA does not have this problem, nor does M1 MBP 16". This might be an M2 MBA specific problem. It is very, *very* obvious if you just play a 300Hz sine with any random frequency generator website and crank the volume up.

Upgrading to Sonoma now, but I doubt they fixed it... it seems this has *always* been broken on at least the M2 13" MBA.

Edit: Still there in Sonoma.

ivabus

@marcan It is present on Sonoma, I'm hearing it right now

Hector Martin

The thing about this bug is that it makes me confident that we can do better, not just in terms of not making this mistake.

When you're doing DIY DSP like this, it's always hard to objectively be confident that you can do a decent job vs. a company with many more employees and resources (e.g. to run high quality tests, user studies, etc.); after all, we're not psychoacoustics experts here, there could be some real "magic sauce" to Apple's DSP that we can't reproduce.

Anyone can make this kind of mistake while writing DSP code, but the fact that nobody caught this before launch, never mind in over a year in the wild, makes it evident that Apple's audio engineering team is, at least on some level, incompetent (or incompetently run; I'm not blaming the employees here, but rather the organization). This is both obvious to the ear side by side with other machines, and obvious in a sine sweep frequency response test, which is the most basic test you can run end-to-end on a completed audio system to ensure it is performing properly. So they didn't even run that. Or they ran it, and didn't notice this. Which is nuts.

So now I feel a lot more confident that the less over-the-top DSP we're aiming for in Asahi is going to be competitive, because clearly Apple's audio team aren't audio geniuses with dark knowledge we don't have. At least on some level they're flailing around with open-coded time domain DSP and aren't running any serious analysis on the result, because anything would've caught this, especially in contrast to it not happening on other machines.

The thing about this bug is that it makes me confident that we can do better, not just in terms of not making this mistake.

When you're doing DIY DSP like this, it's always hard to objectively be confident that you can do a decent job vs. a company with many more employees and resources (e.g. to run high quality tests, user studies, etc.); after all, we're not psychoacoustics experts here, there could be some real "magic sauce" to Apple's DSP that we can't reproduce.

gudenau

@marcan It's a great reminder that a few people hammering away at this stuff can make really good products, for lack of a better word.

Gabe Salkin

@marcan can you submit a bug fix to Apple? Raise a feedback?

mort

@gabesalkin @marcan Nobody can submit a fix to Apple, this stuff isn't open source. Best one can do is submit a bug report and hope it reaches someone who can do something about it.

Sei Kay

@marcan I sent this post to Doug Wyatt of the audio team at Apple. Hopefully something can be done

gregorni

@marcan I feel like this happens frequently in Asahi Linux, that the solution you few people come up with is better than the one by the trillion-dollar company, or that you catch mistakes that they don't.

Seriously impressive!

palenque laser codes

@marcan what does it sound like when you listen to music rather than pure tones?

Hector Martin

@beka_valentine Depends on the kind of music. The bug is in a range the speakers don't reproduce very well anyway, so complex full-range music (pop/etc) will mask it. But trying some stuff like bassoon solos, I definitely hear some weirdness that shouldn't be there.

palenque laser codes

@marcan sounds like it'd be pretty hard to stumble across unless you're very attuned to things like this

Diego Elio Pettenò

@beka_valentine @marcan you or me might find it unlikely to stumble across, but you'd think those who are developing the DSP it would at least be running this kind of tests.

(Although who knows? They may just have bought this firmware from a contractor.)

Gen X-Wing

@marcan I love how it sounds like some kind of airhorn (boat?). It’s kinda funny in that way.

But it has to be a real bummer for anyone owning an M2 laptop.

Manic Pixie Dream Grandpa

@marcan To be fair, as a person not into music, one just sounds louder than the other. But I understand you are saying Apple sound pros should have caught this. (listening on a macbook air m2)

stilescrisis

@sboger @marcan The M2 has a distinct harsh buzz. It shouldn't be hard to discern.

Manic Pixie Dream Grandpa

@stilescrisis @marcan Okay, I re-listened. I hear the buzz now. But still, sounds like it's just being played at a higher volume, but I get what you are saying.

Ogi

@marcan out of curiosity what library did you use to generate those plots?

Ogi

@visne @marcan you’re right, was thinking this looks a lot like #PyQtGraph, but after googling SoX, yeah it’s definitely that.

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