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Sally Strange

P.S. This means there's no such thing as "scientific socialism."

15 Jun 2023 at 18:16 | Open on strangeobject.space
22 comments
Justin Stanley

@SallyStrange how? I don’t think you could get to that conclusion without a rather vulgar/mechanistic view of Engels.

15 Jun 2023 at 21:42 | Open on mastodon.online
Sally Strange

@jdst258 idk, maybe I have a vulgar mechanistic view of Marx and Engels? I'm referring to this, from Wikipedia. AFAICT, the idea hinges on exactly the linear progression of human societal development which does not exist and, in fact, originated in European apologia for inequality.
15 Jun 2023 at 22:20 | Open on strangeobject.space
Justin Stanley

@SallyStrange yeah, this doesn’t do them justice. Historical materialism doesn’t describe or rely on a rigid linear process—enter the dialectical piece of it. I haven’t read the Graeber book, but I doubt he reads M/E that way either. I may have to now.

15 Jun 2023 at 22:25 | Open on mastodon.online
Sally Strange

@jdst258 then I'd love to learn more about scientific socialism. Because nothing I've seen so far from its proponents complicates this synopsis much.

Also yes to your assumption about Graeber. I don't know how he views M & E, that was entirely my opinion.

16 Jun 2023 at 13:26 | Open on strangeobject.space
Justin Stanley

@SallyStrange IMO, this book is very good. I'm sure it's available online somewhere for free, though I haven't looked because I have a hard copy of it.

intpubnyc.com/browse/historica

16 Jun 2023 at 13:37 | Open on mastodon.online
Levka

@SallyStrange @jdst258
Marx was wrong. Class isn’t about economics. Economics is about class. Class is about dominance and submission. Think of it as the Real Golden Rule. Those who make the rules get the gold, and anything else they want, too. That’s how hierarchy works.

16 Jun 2023 at 15:18 | Open on kolektiva.social
Justin Stanley
Levka
Sally Strange
Justin Stanley

@LevZadov Right, I probably will read the book, it's just that what you said is gibberish

16 Jun 2023 at 15:33 | Open on mastodon.online
Levka

@jdst258
(1.) If only I were more articulate, but alas.
(2.) Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't true, though. It's true. I checked. But don't just take my word for it. Find out for yourself. Follow the money.

16 Jun 2023 at 17:05 | Open on kolektiva.social
Psittacus arabica
Justin Stanley

@caffetiel @SallyStrange agreed, but not exactly how I would’ve put it, lmao. I think it behooves us to be a bit more civil here than on birdchan. 😉

16 Jun 2023 at 1:47 | Open on mastodon.online
Psittacus arabica

@jdst258 @SallyStrange
Maybe, but the sheer hubris OP has despite obviously not having read anything on the topic except maybe a wikipedia article and some Bernie stan's idea of social democracy being called socialism warrants some contempt.

Maybe I'm also feeling a bit piquant for other reasons and it's affecting my read of OP (but the most recent comment says that's less likely tbh)

16 Jun 2023 at 3:42 | Open on social.seattle.wa.us
Sally Strange

@caffetiel @jdst258 I've honestly never met any other leftists who had much use for "scientific socialism." My main experience with it is as a rhetorical cudgel wielded by Marxist-Leninists against legit criticism. Happy to be wrong about this, if you have any useful resources, let me know.

16 Jun 2023 at 13:36 | Open on strangeobject.space
Lucas Gonze
HeavenlyPossum

@SallyStrange

Graeber has a separate essay, “Turning Modes of Production Inside Out,” in which he argues that for the concept of “mode of production” to make sense, we really need to be talking about the production of *kinds of people* rather than ways of producing various *stuff.*

Wengrow has a booked called “What Makes Civilization?” in which he details—without ever coming out and saying it explicitly—all the ways in which ancient Mesopotamian economies look a lot like modern capitalist ones. Commodity production for export, branding, mass production in factory complexes, long distance profit-seeking trade, conspicuous consumption by non-productive elites, etc.

Read them side-by-side and it’s easy to see how they ended up working together and developing their theses in DoE.

@SallyStrange

Graeber has a separate essay, “Turning Modes of Production Inside Out,” in which he argues that for the concept of “mode of production” to make sense, we really need to be talking about the production of *kinds of people* rather than ways of producing various *stuff.*

Wengrow has a booked called “What Makes Civilization?” in which he details—without ever coming out and saying it explicitly—all the ways in which ancient Mesopotamian economies look a lot like modern capitalist ones. Commodity...

16 Jun 2023 at 10:01 | Open on kolektiva.social
Sally Strange

@HeavenlyPossum fascinating, thanks for the tip! I'm currently reading "The Value of Everything" but these are going on the list. I was wondering where to go next with their work.

16 Jun 2023 at 10:53 | Open on strangeobject.space
Comrade Ferret

@SallyStrange Good way to show you don't know what scientific socialism is. It doesn't rely on linearity. Nor has socialism been invented many times over throughout thousands of years; it's a response and progression from capitalism, by definition, which develops when capitalism has matured. Lay off the hot takes.

16 Jun 2023 at 22:08 | Open on pettingzoo.co
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