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skze

request

stop behaviour: telling random people you’ve never interacted with before to caption their images

replace with behaviour: replying to their post with an image description

advantages: not hostile towards people legitimately unable to caption; sufficiently annoying for the others but impossible to criticise; provides immediate value to people struggling to make sense of the picture; provides an example for what a caption should look like for those who are new to the feature

56 comments
That Anonymous Coward

@skye

Provide the change you wish to see in the world.

I've seen general critics of how people caption them, but rarely any suggestions of how to improve them that someone can learn from.

Raymond Scott Pert

@skye I think DMing people I've never interacted with before to caption won't get the desired result.

If it's a thread I'm interested in I might instead post the caption as a reply.

I'm almost blind and don't use a screen reader often.

I often skip over many toots where the toot is a screenshot image of a text block that I can't see.

Transplanted Tarheel

@skye captioning other people's work can be hard work, and sometimes I'm not even sure what I am looking at. Not to mention so many images aren't captioned. . . I could make a hobby out of captioning before I retweet. I've pretty much decided it usually isn't worth the trouble and so these days I'm more likely to just ⭐️ and move on.

skze

@Tarheel yes, of course. but if you’re gonna complain about a missing description of an image yoe can see fine, you might as well just write the caption instead. which is why i said “replace behaviour” and not “do this with every single uncaptioned picture you see”

Transplanted Tarheel

@skye oh totally agree. Hard to not come across as hostile.

Fripi

@skye
Hm, I normally write something in the line of "this is such a good picture, could you add an ALT text so everyone can enjoy it?"

The thing is, if people don't add the ALT it still isn't accessible because it is hard to find the description answer under the post with a screen reader.
Also just posting an description as an answer can be seen as passive aggressive as well. I had one negative reaction and 90% said thanks and added ALT.

@Tarheel

@skye
Hm, I normally write something in the line of "this is such a good picture, could you add an ALT text so everyone can enjoy it?"

The thing is, if people don't add the ALT it still isn't accessible because it is hard to find the description answer under the post with a screen reader.
Also just posting an description as an answer can be seen as passive aggressive as well. I had one negative reaction and 90% said thanks and added ALT.

Nire Bryce

@Fripi
(gently, to illustrate part of the problem)

as a thought experiment, describe a moderately complex image on a phone keyboard and time yourself. if it's over two minutes, that's the window I have to post between tasks much of the day.

and I'm okay at describing images, though if they're my own work it's much slower.

is it a good description, if it manages to stay under that? able to be read in a way that's not going to change the meaning?

@skye @Tarheel

@Fripi
(gently, to illustrate part of the problem)

as a thought experiment, describe a moderately complex image on a phone keyboard and time yourself. if it's over two minutes, that's the window I have to post between tasks much of the day.

and I'm okay at describing images, though if they're my own work it's much slower.

Nire Bryce

@Fripi

this is a tooling issue at heart -- we could have it so you write it into the image, and the clients pull it from those metadata fields. more things could have OCR-and-edit. but they don't exist.

and transcriptionists tend to be paid pretty well. it's not a zero cost action, especially for people like me with hard times articulating things that aren't text.

it's become a wedge issue.

@skye @Tarheel

Mike McCabe

@NireBryce @Fripi @skye @Tarheel Possible client UI feature: ‘Accept proposed alt text and add to image’. Like a github pull request.

Fripi

@mikemccabe
I thought about something like that before and I love the idea. Could also be used to improve descriptions. @NireBryce @skye @Tarheel

Fripi

@NireBryce
I disagree wholeheartedly. This is a social use that can't be fixed with technology (even though it can be made much easier with tools).
As long as people think accessibility is a nice extra and not something that absolutely needs to be done we will not get anywhere with this.
In my opinion if you don't have time for the minimal ALT-Text then do not post pictures. If you can't asking for someone to do it is okay and adding it later.
@skye @Tarheel

Nire Bryce

@Fripi
it is not a nice extra feature.

it is, however, not nearly zero cost, especially if you don't type fast on a phone and you only have small blocks of time to be writing things with it.

it sucks. but it is a tooling problem holding back the social one for me.

I give descriptions where possible, but I can't be spending 30x as much time as I would for anything else.

I mostly just stopped posting pictures instead. or photography. because it's not worth people jumping me

@skye @Tarheel

@Fripi
it is not a nice extra feature.

it is, however, not nearly zero cost, especially if you don't type fast on a phone and you only have small blocks of time to be writing things with it.

it sucks. but it is a tooling problem holding back the social one for me.

I give descriptions where possible, but I can't be spending 30x as much time as I would for anything else.

Nire Bryce

@Fripi
it is not unreasonable to say that increasing the time of posting things by an order of magnitude for anything remotely complex is a tooling problem -- it could be in exif, if I've used it before, that could be pulled by the sites. they could write alt text to the exif. that's possible today, but none of them do it.

I do not have the time or energy you seem to. I don't know how to bridge this divide, and clearly you type faster than me so my examples don't work.

@Fripi
it is not unreasonable to say that increasing the time of posting things by an order of magnitude for anything remotely complex is a tooling problem -- it could be in exif, if I've used it before, that could be pulled by the sites. they could write alt text to the exif. that's possible today, but none of them do it.

Nire Bryce

@Fripi
But it's absurd to say it's trivial as it seems to be for you, for everyone.

I am out of patience tonight, for other reasons, but I urge you to not expect everyone to be able to match your abilities and then say they don't care if they can't.

how has this of all things became a wedge.

Fripi

@NireBryce thank you for taking the time to answer so detailed. If it is okay for you I will answer later, because I would like to take some time understanding your perspective and write a good answer.
Would that work for you? If not I can also just say thank you here and stop writing.

Nire Bryce replied to Fripi

@Fripi
either is fine, it's up to you

Phoibi

@Fripi @skye @Tarheel plus it raises the awareness to add it by themselves in the future. I often get the reaction that they simply forgot it and are thankful for the reminder. On the birdside it is possible to set a reminder in the settings, so you can add this information. It would be helpful if you could set a reminder on mastodon either. Or can you already?

Aby

@Phoibi - I've seen people say there's an account here that you can follow that reminds you to caption images you're about to post. I'm not sure how it works.

@Fripi @skye @Tarheel

Fripi

@aby
I use one bot that reminds you when you repost or post something without ALT text. Super nice.
@PleaseCaption - can recommend.

@Phoibi @skye @Tarheel

Gelt-Seeking Gastropod 🐚

@skye

Medium-hard disagree here.

If the OP doesn't like my description, I'm probably doing more harm than good. :/ I guess if we knew each other already and weren't "meeting" on here for the first time, I might ask if I could caption a thing. Maybe. 😓

L.J., un-author-ized writer

@xenophora I think it's much more acceptable when it's made clear that I'm not captioning "for" them, I'm adding my description of the image as I understand it. It's why I might reply with a caption without @-ing the op, or write a separate caption post linking the boosted post.

That said, I don't bother as much these days and simply don't interact with undescribed media for the most part. Most media on my TL is described, and there's plenty to boost without going out of my way adding a description no one asked for.

@skye

@xenophora I think it's much more acceptable when it's made clear that I'm not captioning "for" them, I'm adding my description of the image as I understand it. It's why I might reply with a caption without @-ing the op, or write a separate caption post linking the boosted post.

That said, I don't bother as much these days and simply don't interact with undescribed media for the most part. Most media on my TL is described, and there's plenty to boost without going out of my way adding a description...

Gelt-Seeking Gastropod 🐚

@ljwrites @skye

Sounds good to me.

I'll occasionally boost something without a description, if I think it's important for some other reason. But usually I just settle for putting a *star* on it. It's possible the person has their own reasons for not describing and I'd rather not be Board Cop.

MastoBuddies

@skye @wx1g
Well there's a can also be a big difference between telling and making a request, as well as all that other really good stuff you just mentioned!!

nepi (cat mode)
@skye @kieran can confirm this works. this happened to me and now I try really hard to caption all my images!
Zorin =^o.o^=

@skye As someone who likes to caption images, sometimes I don't have time; it's a quick shot and post while I'm busy with something else, etc...

Being reprimanded for that sucks. The alternative is I don't post anything at all.

People are too quick to judge.

Frost「:therian:|霜の狼|人面獣心」🐺❄️

@zorinlynx @skye Yeah! And for us, sometimes we don't have the /spoons/ to caption.

Someone else coming in to caption our stuff would be pretty great.

Fripi

@IceWolf @zorinlynx @skye I agree that being reminded, especially when you normally do it but forgot it or didn't have the spoons can feel shitty.

But if you are not able to see and only.get the information that there is a picture, that for sure is shitty.

Therefore I am totally on your side with non judging, but the reminder should be there IMO. I always take those as non personal, especially since I want them to be there.

Frost「:therian:|霜の狼|人面獣心」🐺❄️

@Fripi @zorinlynx @skye Except it's... not about reminding?

"Caption your images Or Just Don't Post It" is ableist too.

Frost「:therian:|霜の狼|人面獣心」🐺❄️

@Fripi @zorinlynx @skye Like

there are other reasons to not write an image description than "eh who cares", and nagging about it is just being kind of a dick. Yes I KNOW I didn't write a description, write one yourself don't yell at me about it.

Fripi

@IceWolf

Again, I feel like you are fighting someone that is neither me nor something I suggested.

Telling someone it is missing is in a majority of the cases an easy fix. If it needs to be written that's okay, happy to do it. But saying it is missing is in no way yelling or nagging. That is an interpretatation?

hazelnot :yell:

@skye the problem is that it's still kinda impossible to boost the images in this situation, cause you'd have to boost both the image and your caption in quick succession, and then hope they *show up* that way for the people who need the captions.

Really wish there was a way to boost images together with an added caption, or boost posts with an added CW or something, cause as it stands there's a lot of stuff I simply can't boost cause it's uncaptioned or un-CW'd and I don't wanna be insensitive to other people's needs

@skye the problem is that it's still kinda impossible to boost the images in this situation, cause you'd have to boost both the image and your caption in quick succession, and then hope they *show up* that way for the people who need the captions.

Really wish there was a way to boost images together with an added caption, or boost posts with an added CW or something, cause as it stands there's a lot of stuff I simply can't boost cause it's uncaptioned or un-CW'd and I don't wanna be insensitive to...

Katzentratschen

@hazelnot @skye A common workaround at Tw*tter were quoted tweets, where your image description is added in the tweet above the retweet instead of a reply below it.

elilla&, travesti madam

@hazelnot @skye I wish for "community captions". now that we can edit image descriptions in masto, it could work like

- uncaptioned images get a little red icon for "please add description"
- image OP gets a notification with the suggested caption
- they can approve or reject with one click

#mastoDev

🕷️
@skye People who reply with descriptions are the best kinds of human beings. I always make sure to edit theirs in.
T. Austin Brown

@skye I really love it when people do this. Sometimes I request that *someone* do it when I’m posting a photo on the fly or the app is acting buggy and I can’t do alt text.

realcaseyrollins

@skye I don’t even care if it’s from a stranger, my personal policy is to always say “no” if someone demands that I add a description, but always say “yes” if someone politely asks that I add a description.

Some people act like not adding a description is some gross offense 🙄

Sarah

@skye it's not actually gonna help people who use screen readers unless it's Tumblr. On Twitter or mastodon, since images are shown without reply, all you get from a screen reader is just "image" and then you move onto the next post. No one checks the comments for context because again the original post sounds so opaque and not worth it. I get that some users are actively hostile to the desire to help make the world more accessible, but this doesn't do much

Sarah

@skye if you want a screen reader user to actually read the message, the description has to be in the same post as the image, because that's what sighted users will share. If you repost the same post with image with alt text as a reply, then at least sighted people sharing your version would be helpful but it will greatly anger the OP and potentially run you into copyright issues

Sarah

@skye Tumblr is different because posts are laid out as a whole reply chain so reply with description actually does help there, but of course Tumblr is largely a visual platform and image descriptions are almost never included so it's largely moot

Julys
@skye ermm can you please caption this text post
Kye Fox

@skye I have a hard time writing captions, so I pretty much stopped posting images. Wasn't really a problem until this recent shift toward hostility from the previous norm of helpfully captioning. I was always happy for the help and boosted their description.

Now it's all ghouls doing that "I'm going to steal your image and caption it without credit" garbage, completely devoid of human empathy.

ecsd

@skye

Agreed. "You should caption all your images" ignores something central that is MISSING and I'm not hearing ANYONE complain about that which is MISSING, as follows:

People are expected to post alt-text for EVERY image they post, EVERY time they post it.

That is ABSURD. Computers were invented to HELP PEOPLE AVOID SCUTWORK.

IF:

IF when I compose an image, I could AT THAT TIME add the alt-text to the image, such that "edit image to add alt-text" is OBVIATED, the COMPUTER just reads a TAG IN THE IMAGE and ITSELF produces the alt-text,

THEN I would add alt-text to Every Image.

So the complaint should not be being made to every AUTHOR of an image; the complaint should be directed to the committees responsible for the JPEG and PNG STANDARDS, to REVISE the standards to ENABLE that mechanism. THOSE are the people we should be yelling at: CATCH UP TO WHAT WE NEED.

Such fields (optional additional information) are already present in those image formats, SFAIK. The committees should FORMALIZE their extension as ALT-TEXT holders and then the browser people (Firefox, Chrome, Opera, etc.) revise their code to USE those fields to relieve the TENS OF MILLIONS of posters of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of images of the SCUTWORK required Now for EACH AND EVERY IMAGE.
EVERY. FUCKING. TIME.

So when a poster gets a rude retort from a viewer about NOT HAVING CATERED TO THAT VIEWER IN ADVANCE, the response should be DON'T TELL IT TO ME; TELL IT TO THE JPEG and PNG committees.

I've already offered to provide alt-text to anyone who requests it, on a per-image basis. If that's not good enough, then I'll caption ALL of my images -- IF YOU HELP ME PAY MY RENT.

Here's where to complain:

== PNG

(w3.org/TR/png/)
Feedback:
public-png@w3.org with subject line [PNG] … message topic …

{there may be a better place to send a request.)

== JPEG

(jpeg.org/about.html)

"Initially, you should contact your national standards body, and ask them about how you can help in the work of the 'ISO SC 29/WG 1' committee."

The standard is ISO/IEC 10918, one could assume that ANSI is the standards body for JPEG in the US, but that needs to be confirmed. See also blog.ansi.org/2018/05/jpeg-sta.

Note, I did not find an actual contact address for JPEG ... remind me or find it yourself and let us know.

@skye

Agreed. "You should caption all your images" ignores something central that is MISSING and I'm not hearing ANYONE complain about that which is MISSING, as follows:

People are expected to post alt-text for EVERY image they post, EVERY time they post it.

That is ABSURD. Computers were invented to HELP PEOPLE AVOID SCUTWORK.

ErosBlog Bacchus

@skye I've seen this in action and it hits so much better! Yes, deeply passive-aggressive, but helpful enough to put itself beyond reproach, and totally avoids all the "GTFO of our clubhouse" vibes that preaching at strangers delivers.

Susan Larson ♀️🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🌈

@skye a simple solution is to allow anyone to caption uncaptioned images and ask the original poster to approve the caption or not.

screw_dog

@Susan_Larson_TN @skye also, standardise captions as metadata in image files so we need only caption once (say when taking a photo or first posting)

Susan Larson ♀️🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🌈

@screw_dog @skye i would like them to put a per account image manager that you could search and find a previously uploaded image and include it in new posts.

Loops 🍑 :audhd: :ir:

@screw_dog there is already s standard for this: iptc.org/std/photometadata/spe

Plus, before it existed folks were able to put other forms of descriptive text in other image metadata fields. If you'd like the ability to easily add that information when you take photos, create images or are browsing them, please ask the people who make the software you use. Do also keep in mind that for privacy reasons, especially since iOS started adding precise GPS location by default, many apps have previously taken a blanket policy of stripping image metadata on upload to protect users, so it may be more than where you take / view your pictures that needs to be updated before you can rely on it to be *that* smooth.

If the server actually accepts, and delivers, the embedded metadata, screen readers should be able to use it as a fallback for the alt-text field, however just like you might use the same sentence in different contexts to communicate different things, the same image in different contexts can mean different things and a bespoke description that includes the context of how the image relates to other content in context - the text in your toot, or the one you're replying to - is always the most accessible and friendly option.

After all, alt-text is really just about helping others understand what you're communicating, and willingness to do that is kind of, bare minimum effort for respectful communication imo

@Susan_Larson_TN @skye

@screw_dog there is already s standard for this: iptc.org/std/photometadata/spe

Plus, before it existed folks were able to put other forms of descriptive text in other image metadata fields. If you'd like the ability to easily add that information when you take photos, create images or are browsing them, please ask the people who make the software you use. Do also keep in mind that for privacy reasons, especially since iOS started adding precise GPS location...

Mother Bones AKA Bae'd Runner

@skye
It's the only way I've done it so far and some people are receptive or neutral, but I must say there absolutely are those who criticize it as being "passive-aggressive." Feels like I can't win. 😑

xyhhx

@_L1vY_@mstdn.social @skye@toot.cat alt4you is the best way. even if the OP doesnt like it, their vision impaired followers still get value

chihuamaranian

@skye

This is why I follow the bot @PleaseCaption

If I boost something and it doesnt have a caption, I get a reply from the bot.

This allows me to reply with a caption, unboost, or decide the caption/image is not necessary to understand the post.

Katzentratschen

@skye Several blind folks on Tw*tter explained it's rather impossible for them to find image descriptions hidden in replies. It may work if OP replies to their own tweet, and thus creating a thread. But it doesn't work well with random replies from other people.

Jon

@katzentratschen that's true -- and its even worse with federation (where they might not see the reply). That said I've also seen blind folks (both here and Twitter) who are for some reason unable to caption pictures point out just how hostile an environment it is when they get told to do so by a sighted person.

@skye another advantage of your approach: it provides text for the OP to cut-and-paste and add to alt text, which makes it a lot easier for them.

Loops 🍑 :audhd: :ir:

@jdp23 good point on the second one, maybe if you are going to spend the time requesting someone add alt text, you could phrase it as "hey, I noticed you forgot alt text and here's some I think would work for this image, if you want to add it you can by editing your post" might be nicer, but also if there are some folks that rely on others to do all that work for them, and they are able to do it themselves, are we really encouraging a more accessible mindset? @katzentratschen @skye

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