Gregory's ServerIf there are going to be climate-justified subsidies for owning electric cars, there should be subsidies for not owning cars at all.
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75 comments
 @nobilis @humantransit It should not be free, because you cannot subsidize not using public transportation (or using it less). Instead of subsidies, the Polluter pays principle should be applied. All forms of transports should be pro rata taxed based on pollution.  @bart @nobilis @humantransit 👍 Don't tax citizens and then give it back to those not harming the environment. Tax activities that harm the environment. People will find creative ways for people to do all the things they love (travel, heat lots of living space, have fun toys, etc) without damaging the environment. @humantransit @rgacogne I’m a car owner and I absolutely approve this. Basically, the taxes should go up for all kinds of cars.  @ondrej @humantransit @rgacogne But how to get from here to there? When I'm not programming I'm driving buses--80hr weeks at keyboard drive me to burnout, so it's good to have alternatives. I hold the record at 11mpg driving a double-decker to Lancaster and back. So, how does a low–paid bus driver get to work to drive the early bus, or even worse get home after the last one? We shouldn't risk the collapse of town + city life any more than we should risk climate collapse.   @chu @humantransit any kind of bike should be subsidized. But I would settle for a tax rebate of €2000/ yr for any person over 16 that does not own a car. @chu @humantransit IMO vastly more important than being free/low-cost, the service's quality should justify itself to the users -- availability and quality also drive demand! Many people choose to drive a car because public transport is unreliable or don't go where they need/want to go.  @o_andras @chu @humantransit Yes. This, 100%. For most destinations in the UK, it's cheaper for me to drive than to take a train, even if I'm alone. When there are two or more of us, it's not even close. Driving is also much more reliable. I want that fixed, and I'm prepared to pay more tax to make it happen. In Canada, there's a transit penalty. It takes longer, is not reliable, and costs a fortune. Taking the train to Ottawa from Toronto cost me $700 for my family of four last year. It would have been cheaper to rent a car. But my federal government insists they are the most pro environment party. My prime minister marched with Greta Thunberg no less! (Then approved an off shore oil well within weeks). @bdatlrides @o_andras @chu @humantransit Except that the promise of public transport really is all three — price through economies of scale, speed through use of infrastructure better than regular roads (bus lanes, train tracks); ease of use is where where is some justification for falling down, but things like the London tube show it can be done right.  I was working afternoon/evenings for a while. Work was only a couple of miles away. I could take the bus to get there, a few bucks and ten minutes plus twenty minutes waiting. When I was done my shift, I couldn't get the same bus, because it stopped running by then. Well--the direction I needed to go stopped, the other direction was still running. *shrug* I had to get a cab home every night, which cost me over an hour's pay (before taxes). @chu @humantransit I'm ok with no subsidy, what I need is a path to do my errands on that isn't shared with two ton masses of metal driven by tired and stressed people  Free public transportation for all carless folks. #GND. Imagine what the world will look like when we organize it around ecology, rather than capitalism. All the investment in our world would go toward a green new deal, rather than fossil fuel infrastructure. I’m looking at trees just ripped apart by the latest storms. Huge tree trunks snapped in half. We are out of time.  @mishi @humantransit Free for *everybody* so the cars stay in the driveway/garage. @mishi @humantransit It's free here for everyone but only have shuttles in the peak summer season. @humantransit But yes, that should be easier. @humantransit if you have your driving license taken away by doctors then you qualified for disabled rail card (1/3 off train and tube) and free off peak bus use. If you choose not to buy a car, have never had a license or don’t drive for any other reason: full price If you have no intent ever of driving you could consider declaring yourself unfit to drive (sleep apnea, perhaps) just for the discount. Though if your bus service is FirstBus it’s hard to justify the effort @humantransit Uk perspective, obviously. It’s just ironic that the system gives people who are medically unfit to drive -myself included- more support on public transport costs than people who choose not to drive  @humantransit Someone needs to pay me $500/mo not to drive or mine crypto.  @humantransit yeah, that would cover my yearly check-up of my bicycle! Or new walking shoes.  @humantransit I'd rather have higher registration fees for all cars and have them somehow tied to impact on roads and environment. A smart car that gets 35 mpg and weighs a ton should not cost as much to register as a 1-ton pickup that gets 11 mpg and weighs 5 tons. The cost of a hybrid could work on the same formula and a full electric would have to have a different structure. @humantransit And while I'm on this soapbox, municipalities should not be allowed to (or should be discouraged from by voters) lump all "transportation" into the same bond or mill levy on a ballot. I vote against them all because they don't even tell me how much is going for bike lanes & public transit, but I fear if enough of us did, we'd be destroying the village to save it. Better still, don't pay for roads out of the general budget, pay for it out of the registration fees. @humantransit 100% agree with this. It could go a long way towards lifting folk out of poverty if there was a significant annual reward for not owning a car. Although it would be a hard one to police, I suapect  @humantransit @breadandcircuses never owned a car, so getting a kick, etc. I think not owning a car at all should at least get you a free public transport pass. Very reasonable I think, especially since I also still pay taxes for car infrastructure I never use. @xerge @humantransit @breadandcircuses Also, your not driving resulted in less cost because less wear and tear on roads. Not to mention all the social and environmental costs associated with cars. @xerge @humantransit @breadandcircuses this! Plus you should be getting good pedestrian infrastructure too! @humantransit "Not paying insurance/title/registration/maintenance" is a pretty good one, I dare say.  @intjonathan @humantransit For me, the carfree lifestyle is hopelessly out of reach. So is the cost of car ownership, of course. We've backed ourselves into too many path dependent cul-de-sacs with the car thing. There seems to be no way out. @intjonathan @humantransit I wrote this back in 2007 but I still stand by most of it. https://astoundingteam.com/wordpress/2007/09/18/1249/ @humantransit @jmichaelward who exactly will be lobbying for that and how will they get to the meetings? @josh @humantransit You're asking the good questions, my dude. Lots of interesting responses to the original post! @humantransit @Catfish_Man https://fortune.com/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-1-3-trillion-record/ But hey… I know where we might find 1.3 trillion to get started! @humantransit “here’s $10,000, go buy a bike that wouldn’t look out of place in the Tour de France” @humantransit Minimálně v České republice tyto dotace existují. Nejdou přímo občanům, ale dotují hromadnou dopravu.  @humantransit Yeah, just send money to the car producers to not produce vehicles. It's the most carbon neutral way to keep the industry.  @humantransit We have some subsidies for bicycles, though you don't have to give up the car altogether to qualify. But I don't know how effective they are - I sort-of get the impression that the bicycle subsidies will mostly be attractive to middle class already-cyclists who are quite happy to get a cut price better bike. @humantransit You already save money by not owning a car at all. Despite giving subsidies, governments still get money from EV owners. Taxes on buying them to begin with, fuelling to a lesser extent, etc. And depending on the country those subsidies are quickly dissappearing. In the UK there's practically none with the last one dissappearing.  @humantransit Well, not quite a subsidy, but not having a car does leave a lot more money in your bank account. People tend to underestimate how expensive maintaining a car is. @humantransit Absolutely! Reminds me a couple of years back here in The Netherlands where drivers who would frequently drive a certain busy highway got paid if they stopped using that highway, while I, who never used it in the first place, never got a penny!  @humantransit As an aside, I did a cost comparison for transport about 30 years ago. The cheapest mode of transport was a bicycle with running costs of a tyre every 3,500 miles and an occasional can of oil. I used leather brakes so never needed to replaced brake pads. Walking was quite costly as a pair of hiking boots would last only 700 miles or so on tarmac. More expensive were bus and car. Totalmente de acuerdo. En España te dan ayudas a la compra de un vehículo (hasta 7000 euros si entregas el viejo y 9000 euros si lo achatarras) pero no te dan ayudas por achatarrar un vehículo sin comprar otro. @humantransit @cygnathreadbare what do you mean? public transport is already highly subsidized, at least in european countries. There are many other subsidies in construction and industry tied to reduced CO2 emissions. You also have carbon taxes that can be considered a kind of a subsidy for companies that don't pollute. You also have emissions credits and markets.. There are tons of things already being done in that regard. EV subsidies are just one of many fronts.   @humantransit As a non-car owner myself, I'd like my subsidie to go toward sidewalks on ALL the streets in my town. It's like they try to make as hard as possible for walkers and/or bikes. 😡 @humantransit Belgium pays an allowance to workers who ride their bicycle to work. #bicycle #cycling #working #climatechange #climatecrisis #mobility @_noelamac_ @humantransit i was just thinking about this - but in theory for the US, didn't know it was reality elsewhere @humantransit In the red states they tax us for having an EV and not paying gas tax. I guess non-owners should see the same? @humantransit That's, essentially, what should go into public transport making it cheaper/free.   @humantransit I think those are called subsidies for public transport, active transport infrastructure etc ; ) But it sure would be nice to get the same percentage discount when buying a bike, especially an e-bike. @humantransit A lot of us po' people would be doing alright if we actually got rewarded for our environmentally friendly lifestyles. @humantransit In Ontario we call it Fee and Dividend. Car less people get same carbon rebate as everyone else, despite that they didn’t have to pay any Fees on gasoline. @humantransit Free bicycles for people with no registered vehicles. Free registration for motorcycles. Tax the hell out of cars and trucks. Subsidize mass transit. @humantransit well said. But also, there needs to be some way of accepting that some of us (eg. me, bus driver, having to get to work before the bus can get me there) should be recompensed for having a car that rarely does 60 miles in a week. Since I get free bus travel as a perk, it makes even less sense for me to drive when bus is possible. Oh, at my usage, it's going to be a while yet before electric vehicle makes economic sense.  @humantransit good point however it would have to be across the board,wouldn't it? For all pollution devices? Like cigarettes etc.? @humantransit  @humantransit If you're not driving an ICE vehicle, there's no gain in giving you money. Also worth saying that even people who don't personally own a vehicle benefit from the use of ICE or jet-fueled vehicles in the form of public transport, cartage of goods, services like ambulance, fire brigade and more.  @humantransit ah, but filthy car non-owners aren't contributing to the GDP by not buying a car and really in what sense are they even human if so? |
@humantransit
Absolutely. We already have them--public transportation is already subsidized--but IMHO they should be free to the rider.
https://www.wired.com/story/free-public-transit/