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Hector Martin

We really should just start calling non-conformant graphics API implementations (like Apple's OpenGL, or MoltenVK) "buggy".

If code doesn't pass tests we usually call that a bug and don't ship it until it passes them, right? It is exceptional that Apple is shipping OpenGL drivers that don't pass the tests and they are okay with that. They shouldn't really get credit for supporting "OpenGL 4.1" when they literally fail the OpenGL 4.1 tests (they even fail the OpenGL ES 2.0 tests!).*

* Nobody actually knows how to compile/run the full test suite on macOS OpenGL (because Apple would be the only entity who would care about that, and they don't), but we do know for a fact they have bugs the tests test for, so we can confidently say they'd fail the tests if someone were to actually port/run them.

6 June at 2:59 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
14 comments
Entitas

@marcan

> If code doesn't pass tests we usually call that a bug and don't ship it until it passes them, right?

lol. lmao.

6 June at 3:01 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
Richard Barrell

@marcan yea, absolutely
I rather like how honest some of the Dolphin dev blogs have been about buggy drivers.

6 June at 3:32 | Open on unstable.systems
TinDrum

@marcan Isn’t OpenGL deprecated since Metal?

6 June at 3:35 | Open on aus.social
Hector Martin

@oscarjiminy They "deprecated" it to force people to use Metal for newer features. They're probably never going to be able to completely remove it (too much software including their own uses OpenGL) and being deprecated is no excuse for failing the tests anyway.

6 June at 3:46 | Open on social.treehouse.systems
Longhorn

@marcan @oscarjiminy macOS itself doesn't rely on any OpenGL components anymore.

In fact OpenGL is completely broken on vmapples. Causes some third-party apps such as Blender to crash on launch.

6 June at 5:23 | Open on mastodon.social
Siguza

@never_released @marcan @oscarjiminy also, I would not count on "system apps breaking" being a blocker for removing OpenGL. Not since they trashed System Settings with SwiftUI. Maybe they'll remove the system app in question altogether if enough people complain though.

6 June at 5:47 | Open on infosec.space
Longhorn

@siguza @marcan @oscarjiminy last time I ran Chess on vmapple it was at like 1fps because of a very slow SW rendering path presumably. Wonder if they addressed that

6 June at 5:53 | Open on mastodon.social
Siguza

@never_released @marcan @oscarjiminy that probably directly depends on whether either Tim Cook personally or an engineer with commit access to the Chess app codebase is using it inside VZ.fw...

6 June at 6:03 | Open on infosec.space
ROTOPE~1 :yell:

@marcan if the vendor is big enough, we redefine the standard to be "whatever the hell their implementation is doing"

6 June at 3:36 | Open on mastodon.social
curtmack

@marcan Similar to a comment I read recently that -ffast-math should have really been called -fwrong-math.

Everyone wants fast math. Some people are okay with wrong math.

6 June at 3:50 | Open on floss.social
Kai Ninomiya

@marcan My team (Chrome WebGL/WebGPU) is very conformance-focused by nature and we have always called them bugs. Occasionally the bugs are in the spec or test instead of the driver, but if a test is failing, there's a bug somewhere.

6 June at 4:33 | Open on mastodon.social
Longhorn

@marcan Vulkan Portability was a deliberate tradeoff there.

6 June at 5:21 | Open on mastodon.social
Karl

@marcan I would not be surprised if the engineers working at Apple on OpenGL drivers agreed with you.

Claiming that something is supported is often a call made by marketing/salespeople as soon as engineering reports that they cobbled something together that kinda works.

6 June at 7:17 | Open on infosec.exchange
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