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Johannes Ernst

Pondering how the #threadiverse group thinks of having consistent reply trees across instances for the purpose of forum software. One proposal is to have a “group” actor re-announce everything that has been sent to it. It appears to me this approach would work just as well in a microblogging context where we have, today, the inconsistent reply tree problem across instances as well. The actor that made the root post would act as the re-announcer.

community.nodebb.org/category/

11 comments
James M.

@J12t I implemented something like this in a federated private-post social media system I wrote-- in order to hide one's friend list, all responses to a post are only sent to the OP's device, which then fans it out to all recipients of the original post. Responses can be anonymous (except to the OP).

The main problem with this is that the OP's device has to be on and able to process incoming responses, or else the conversation will pause until the OP comes back online. It's only really a problem on mobile, and I'd guess it's solvable with push notifications to a background process (which is what my app does). However, background processes are problematic on mobile, as they can be terminated by the OS without warning. I think there's a way to mitigate this, but that's around when my development stopped.

Another solution is to have a trusted always-on computer for each posting user, to do that reply processing. However, that can be a barrier for many mobile users, but you have a different use case.

@J12t I implemented something like this in a federated private-post social media system I wrote-- in order to hide one's friend list, all responses to a post are only sent to the OP's device, which then fans it out to all recipients of the original post. Responses can be anonymous (except to the OP).

Johannes Ernst

@jamesmarshall well, the ActivityPub world really depends on always-on servers, so giving them one more task doesn’t seem to be to onerous…

James M.

@J12t very true, as long as users trust their servers, which is already the case with AP anyway.

Internet Rando

@J12t So if i suddenly reach 20k people in one post, on accident, my server has to bear the distribution of the resulting thread flood? Maybe I misunderstand.

Johannes Ernst

@mousey Well, the choices seem to be 1) bear the load 2) the replies don't get distributed evenly (today's situation) or 3) something more complicated that I haven't seen a design for :-)

infinite love ⴳ

@J12t the thinking is less "consistent reply trees" and more "consistent moderated conversations". whereas the reply tree is an implicit structure that needs no approval to be part of, having an actual reified collection with an explicit owner/moderator allows us to authoritatively decide which certain posts are allowed into the conversation or not. anyone can reply to anything, but not anyone can Add into a Collection.

Johannes Ernst

@trwnh imho these finer points are really hard for casual users to understand. And nobody wants to think hard when chatting casually. Avoid if possible I would recommend…

infinite love ⴳ

@J12t This is mostly invisible to users except in what UX it enables -- for example, following a thread instead of a nebulous "group actor" that spams them with completely unrelated or uninteresting activities. or being able to browse a thread at all, or having a thread at all.

der.hans

@J12t even for forums, does the Fediverse really need a consistent tree?

There would be inconsistencies due to instance and account blocks, language and keyword exclusion, instance policies and moderation

All of those being two-way inconsistency tools

I understand wanting a consistent tree, so everyone has access to all the posts, but I think the Fediverse focus on safety should override an attempt at consistency

Johannes Ernst

@lufthans one of the first things non-technical users of the Fediverse complain about, after they managed to sign up, is that they can’t see all the replies and all the likes. At least anecdotally, that’s my experience.

der.hans

@J12t does a consistent tree require a central resource to define the tree?

Does it require everyone have access to all nodes in the tree?

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