@Gargron Never thought about it that way but you make a strong argument. I support no quotes.

@Gargron I actually like this, I admittedly would behave out of character due to that feature. It also sent mobs after people through quote tweets from large accounts. This keeps people responsible, and maybe a bit kinder.

@Gargron I'm a professional tech writer. Need my help in the repo?

@Gargron I was wondering and kind of like that it is on purpose and not just "didn't bother". 🤗

@Gargron But quoting IS replying. It's simply including the thing being referred to so people don't have to seek it. A bare reply is often ignored. If someone wants to abuse, they will, but I've never see it done by serious people. Perhaps we can have this debate on a #tag to see my point. I'm fairly confident most Twitter alums will agree.

#QuotedPostsOnMastodon

@Gargron I’ve requested it a few times and while I understand the rationale I very much want the ability to see a post, boost the post, and say something about it ie “here is why I think this is interesting” and get engagement from my community.

Maybe that is a different mechanism to avoid the negative behavior. Forward + comment sort of. Which is what I wind up doing manually.

Thanks for taking the time on this entire project.

@Gargron Amén.

@Gargron That sounds like a good idea, but when it gets to long threads with many subthreads, can there please be an icon or menu entry that says "show root toot" that will get you back to the beginning?

@Gargron @osc Yes, and people can reply and then boost/RT their reply anyway! Much less toxic

I've never understood the QT feature, it also makes many convos unreadable when it's repeatedly used

@gargron as if manual rt wasn't how retweeting started in the first place...

@Gargron So we're prevented from quoting other posts just because some people use the function negatively? Retweets began as just the letters RT before a copy-and-paste. What's to stop people from doing that again here? Absolutely nothing. Except that it's clunky and just having the ability built-in would be much more sensible.

@Gargron
Heroic

@Gargron that's very smart. Thanks for explaining.

@Gargron but quoting does work well if it’s a thread being amplified

@Gargron This is fascinating. I'm a big fan of quoting personally but I can fully understand why you've chosen not to include it. I wonder, with Mastodon being open source, whether we'll end up with a fork with someone implementing quoting as it's so popular. Potential compatibility across federated instances of forked versions may lead to interesting times.

@Gargron I hear you. You make a reasonable point.

@Gargron Thank you for making this choice. This is why I find Mastodon so refreshing 👍

@Gargron This gave me a different perspective on how to interact here, including this reply. Thank you.

@Gargron but that's my emotional support toxic behavior 😩

@Gargron BTW, thank you for this!

@Gargron
I love toots. Authentic. No birds harmed.

@Gargron My audience has context, there’s a long history of shared humor. Replies only have local context.

@Gargron this reasoning makes sense to me - I miss it because I often use quote tweets to "yes, and," as in "this thread is good and I want to jump of it to talk about something related but I don't want to clog up the author's mentions or crowd their mic." But linking can still be used for that the same way I'd link to an article etc

@Gargron Some people are toxic that way, it's true. But seeing that is often just a good way to spot a toxic person. Limiting otherwise valuable functionality isn't such a great way to restrict toxicity as implementing quality of life features like block, mute, the ability to leave conversations etc. Most of the time a straightforward retoot should be enough, mind.

@Gargron this is so thoughtful and progressive. Makes total sense to me.

@Gargron this is something I like very much. I like that the system encourages talking to (tooting to) the author of a toot, not talking about them to some anonymous audience. Which I didn’t even realize I did so much. Thank you.

@Gargron thank you

@Gargron Thinking about it, and your reasons...I think you are right. And I thank you.

For me, I used the quote-tweet do amplify and emphasize issues I face as a woman in tech+art+science. But we can all find other ways to amplify/boost in more healthy ways.

The challenge for me, sometimes, is that it's hard to form words to explain why something really resonates for me. And that is what I used quote-tweet for. With my comment being "This!"

@Gargron Thinking about it, and your reasons...I think you are right. And I thank you.

For me, I used the quote-tweet to amplify and emphasize issues I face as a woman in tech+art+science. But we can all find other ways to amplify/boost in more healthy ways.

The challenge for me, sometimes, is that it's hard to form words to explain why something really resonates for me. And that is what I used quote-tweet for. With my comment being "This!"

@Gargron Right decision. 👍

@Gargron I LOVE it. Thank you for being so thoughtful

@Gargron it's interesting because if this was on Twitter, my first reflex would to quote your post and add something like "that's an interesting take, what do you guys think?". Not all commentary need to be toxic, although I definitely see where you're coming from. QRT can be a way to redirect the discussion toward your community, so I will definitely miss this feature a bit.

@Gargron I love this

@Gargron Right choice.

@Gargron what a great explanation. Thank you!

@Gargron Good decision! Agree! I like that the instance I'm on doesn't even have DMs which means less private toxicity, too.

@Gargron I was just thinking about the lack of QT here last night and it makes so much sense.

@Gargron But.. I’d love to say something POSITIVE about the posts I share… explain why I like them and why I think they’re important? One of the best things about the birdysite?

@Gargron often I use both for the same tweet.
But I suppose I am not very "toxic"

@Gargron At the same time, the programmer soul in me that's a bit Libertarian thinks "Why the heck?!", but the empath sees the wisdom of what you are saying. I think I have rarely seen quoting used as a mechanism to constructively continue a conversation, now that I think about it. 🤨 Most often as a tool to decontextualize speech. 🤮 Smart! 👏🏻

@Gargron disappointed to see that this place already has the tone police!

@Gargron A wise move.

@Gargron I’m not certain I agree with the idea that it will, of necessity, lead to toxicity, but I’m new here, and must admit to ignorance of other ways to do things. Ie. I could be blisteringly wrongheaded. In any event, happy to learn a different way to do things that has obviously been working for hundreds of thousands of people for years now.

@Gargron I think this is a wise choice.

@Gargron

Every time I find Mastodon "missing" a common Twitter feature I ask myself if this feature is really missing, or if I'm trying to bring something to Mastodon that the curators and shapers of Mastodon culture explicitly don't want here.

This one is an opinionated position, and... I think I like it?

Hand rolling a QRT is not impossible here, but a lot of friction is added, and "healthier conversation" alternatives are easier to do. I'm going to "reply and boost" this!

@Gargron I do both

@Gargron That actually makes a fair amount of sense… It‘s making me reconsider my Twitter behaviour. I mostly quote-tweeted to „add value“ I suppose, & add my own perspective to the debate, as opposed to simply re-tweeting

@Gargron AMAZING 🤩 I love that, thank you!!!!

@Gargron very well thought through. 👍

@Gargron I love that decision. I think it reduces the ease of performative toxicity.

@Gargron 👏👏👏👏👏

@Gargron Is there any chance a federated server might be able to add it as a local feature?

@Gargron This was one of the worst things about Twitter, thank you!

@Gargron a very smart move.
I see people doing exactly this in their behaviour on WhatsApp as their anger levels rise and they deliberately throw abuse at each other or toxic gosdip about someone they know.

@Gargron I think this was such a wise and wide ranging decision! Congratulations! And thank you!

@Gargron provides context on the design choice. A counter point is overlapping audiences who may be interested in the topic, and where the quote is tangential to the original toot

@Gargron
This is an interesting perspective. I'll ponder it. I'm inclined to think not all quote boosts are evil, ill-intentioned, or inherently destructive, and in the event they are, maybe there are other controls available. But it's a valid position.

@Gargron Excellent logic. Quote replies are the worst. People will screen-shot them and so on, but there's no reason to make it so easy and normalized.

@Gargron I truly like not having a quote a toot feature and agree it's toxic, instead of engaging a person. I still have a hold over saying "account" which imho dehumanizes the person sending a toot. Thank you for not having quote a toot available.

@Gargron interested in the potential this has for doing exactly as you suggest. Might end up being a worthwhile trade off. Always, always, always being willing to revise is how we stay vital, I reckon

@Gargron Attempting to control social media behavior by removing features seems like trying to design a language in which you are unable to articulate bad thoughts, and just as doomed to failure.

Recall that Twitter did not invent RTs and QTs, users did.

@Gargron
Makes sense. Let's hope people won't resort to screenshots instead.
@dassaju

@Gargron add the translation option, please 🇮🇹

@Gargron Makes sense. 🙂

@Gargron never had the bird app, seeing stuff like this makes me think I made a great choice to be here though :)

@Gargron This argument makes sense to me, though from experience on the bird app, I would sometimes use "quote" to highlight a post from a different community to my own followers, with a personal message why I consider it important. I might also, for example, translate a post from German or Finnish to my mostly English-speaking followers.

Maybe making "quotable" optional could be an idea? But I also accept the idea that we need to use mastodon differently than what we may be used to.

@Gargron your app is rubbish.

@Gargron 👏 ✊

@Gargron appreciate the thought and insight that provides context to a bold decision...we shall speak as an individual to provide information and context

@Gargron 👍

@Gargron I am starting to feel the same about private group chats

@Gargron i detested the quoting feature on twitter, used to parsphrase and spin others words, and mock people sickened me

@Gargron found this initially hard as an academic who’s used to summarising the importance / relevance of a post as I re toot. But replies work fine too… I know you’ve moved mountains for us newbies this last month 🙏 … but cheeky request would it be possible to have access to GIFs in longer term ?

@Gargron this feels like a good one to recycle periodically

@Gargron wise wise choice

@Gargron That's one of the biggest problems I have with the #birdSite, which I think is about to become WAY more performative.

@Gargron I was already wondering...

@Gargron I've written this elsewhere, but I suspect with correct moderation tools, we could solve the pile-on problem whilst still having quote toots.

E.g., if a quote toot, allow reporting for misuse / abuse, and then provide a means to disable quoting for a user for a time period / indefinitely, and only allow quoting of public content

Additionally, education can help change the message here: act bad & you loose the privilege. Potentially even "disable quotes" as a setting.

@Gargron Well then we're just going to have to get around it by posting links to the toots we're remarking on, aren't we?

@Gargron I love this. Choices like these are what distinguish Mastodon from “it’s the bird app, only I’m in charge.”

@Gargron I agree but didn't think I would at first. Replies are treated as first-class-citizen toots here so it isn't really an issue. You gain the same effect without forking the conversation.

@Gargron

Thank you so you so much for continuing to choose not to build this feature into this instance.

I like Mastodon as it is. I don't want it to become "New Twitter".

Besides, if one needs to "quote toot", then they can take an image and type in what it says on the image description.

I consider that level of effort gives a person time to decide if it's true, helpful, important, necessary, and/or kind.

@Gargron not sure I agree with this yet, but I think it’s a bold stance and I’m willing to give it a shot

@Gargron is this still your position?

@Gargron I dislike people who are just a stream of Boosts all day every day. That's content generated by other people, and I'm following *you* because I want to hear *your* opinion on things. But I understand many people aren't good at starting original topics themselves, and quoting lets you achieve both boosting of other's great topics you appreciate *and* adding the value of your opinion.

@cquest Tu as au raison de repouéter ces posts d’Eugen, Christian. C’est un truc important, que j’ai lu il n’y a pas longtemps, que j’ai compris et que j’approuve.

@Gargron Thank you, this is a really great explanation. I don't suppose you have you a more complete set of musings about your design choices?

@Gargron completely agree!

Letting the users choose (as suggested in one of the replies) might be a bad idea since many of them are coming from the blue bird and just want to see the same features as overthere.

@Gargron I think that’s a really good point

@Gargron Love this decision!

@Gargron Although I’ve usually use the Twitter quote tweet to push a thread to Threadreaderapp without clutter the tweet’s timeline, your approach is helpful in providing an informational firebreak to reduce abusive behaviour. (Thinking about ethics of thread captures & documenting references. Good, bad, Ugly.)

@Gargron when I quote-tweet on Twitter, it’s usually a “Hey followers, here’s why I think you’ll be interested in this” thing.

Is there an equivalent here?

@Gargron never thought of it that way but wow that is extremely accurate. Thank you!!!

@Gargron what about the recent bird app trend to screenshot and post? It’s even worse imo as Qt at least made you aware this was happening

@Gargron I actually highly agree with this choice. As someone who has had numerous people quote tweet me to be snarky on replies, I really do think it’s better to keep the conversations ON the original posts. It creates a better sense of community. It also increases the likelihood someone will follow who you see boosting.

@Gargron I've never really understood the antipathy to quote tweets. Some good tweeps, such as the venerable Michael White, do it all the time.

It has a whiff of the religious war.

But.

Your game, your rules.

Anything that gets us away from an algorithm explicitly designed to promote urgent emotional engagement (which means stoking great and hatred) is good.

@Gargron I really appreciate this point of view; honestly hadn't really thought of it that way, but it really hones in on my frustration with the bird app -- perhaps migrating here is a chance to alter that habit of mine.

@Gargron

Twitter’s algorithm gave weight to quote tweets, and users got hooked on the practice.

No need for it here.

@Gargron Everything is performative my dear. Especially all these ‘rules’ from people about how to use the platform